Australia and US Joint Military Excercise: Talisman Sabre (1 Viewer)

[HotShot]

Lol. It's pretty weak to go off and suggest that "maybe Falun Gong is an organisation similar to the KKK." Seriously. But you know, you're wrong. Read into the links that WithoutaFace supplied a page back, and I think you'll find that China has a pretty abysmal record when compared to the US. Yeah, the US isn't great but at the very least a lot of what they've done has been remotely understandable. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are pretty obvious examples of that, and they were your prime example...

Understandable dropping two nukes? yeah mate...

What about America's conduct in the cold war?.... Vietnam??? Hey wasnt there massacre there by american soldiers that was all covered until recently? Its really giving links to everything on the web.. but think about - as all Historians say - the victor makes history!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre

Oh look even the Americans have massacred people..

AMerica has killed more civilians than China ever will.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_massacres

Why the americans even wiped out their indifenous people.

To claim that crediblity alone is based on how many massacre how many civilians died is stupid. Its what we don tknow about that matters. And America especially under Bush has had the most cover ups ever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres - massacres have happened all over the world - for so many different reasons.

But we need look at the roles of each country? China and America.
America is a superpower - China is a developing nation. We KNOW that China has humanitarian issues and things as such.

But what happens in AMerica is often hidden and twisted and presented differently to us why? Because they know they fucken can get away with it.
the WAr against Iraq was illegal - they made false promises and accusations - and even the UN condemned it. But what can we do - jack shit and sit and watch people die innocently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_Mine_massacre

 

[withoutaface]

No. Just, no.

Bloodiest dictators for the millennium
mainly Empress Dowager Cixi 1859-64, Tai Ping Rebellion 12,000,000
Genghis Khan 1215–1233 4,000,000
Adolf Hitler 1933–1945 21,000,000
Chiang Kai-shek 1921–1948 10,000,000
Kublai Khan 1252–1279 19,000,000
Vladimir Lenin 1917–1924 4,000,000
Leopold II of Belgium 1885–1908 10,000,000
Pol Pot 1968–1987 2,000,000
Joseph Stalin 1929–1953 43,000,000
Hideki Tojo 1941–1945 4,000,000
Mao Zedong 1923–1976 77,000,000

EDIT: So your argument is that Bush has somehow managed to sweep the disappearance of 99 million people under the carpet?

 

[circusmind]

No. Just, no.

Bloodiest dictators for the millennium
mainly Empress Dowager Cixi 1859-64, Tai Ping Rebellion 12,000,000
Genghis Khan 1215–1233 4,000,000
Adolf Hitler 1933–1945 21,000,000
Chiang Kai-shek 1921–1948 10,000,000
Kublai Khan 1252–1279 19,000,000
Vladimir Lenin 1917–1924 4,000,000
Leopold II of Belgium 1885–1908 10,000,000
Pol Pot 1968–1987 2,000,000
Joseph Stalin 1929–1953 43,000,000
Hideki Tojo 1941–1945 4,000,000
Mao Zedong 1923–1976 77,000,000

EDIT: So your argument is that Bush has somehow managed to sweep the disappearance of 99 million people under the carpet?

But...but....Starbucks!! South America!!

 

[Josie]

But...but....Starbucks!! South America!!

Hello Alec Baldwin.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

Where did Withoutaface get those stats from?

Understandable dropping two nukes? yeah mate...

Somewhat. I don't know of the entire situation, nor do I lay claim to being an expert historian, but I always thought that the idea behind dropping the bombs was to put an end to the Japanese war machine. What's that saying? 250,000 killed by the nuclear bomb, and 1,000,000 saved.

But we need look at the roles of each country? China and America.
America is a superpower - China is a developing nation. We KNOW that China has humanitarian issues and things as such.

But what happens in AMerica is often hidden and twisted and presented differently to us why? Because they know they fucken can get away with it.
the WAr against Iraq was illegal - they made false promises and accusations - and even the UN condemned it. But what can we do - jack shit and sit and watch people die innocently.

Ok, ok, let's make it clear that I do indeed agree with you that America kinda sucks balls, at least in terms of its foreign policy and dare I say, human rights record (through funding, wars, foreign debts). I guess what we disagree on, is that you're willing to sweep 77 million peoples deaths underneath the rug (if WAF's stats are correct) on account of China being a developing nation, as if that matters, whereas I look at a life being worth a life.

 

[Josie]

Where did Withoutaface get those stats from?



Somewhat. I don't know of the entire situation, nor do I lay claim to being an expert historian, but I always thought that the idea behind dropping the bombs was to put an end to the Japanese war machine. What's that saying? 250,000 killed by the nuclear bomb, and 1,000,000 saved.

I could go into heaps of detail, I just wrote a big nasty essay on this
Brief summary though: Truman and his staff knew that the bombs were not needed to end the war, as the Japanese were basically ready to surrender once they knew their Emperor was going to be safe. A land invasion was never going to be necessary, and so the figures are a distortion.
The basic true purpose of dropping the bomb was to make a big impact on Stalin and the Soviet Union. And it did help speed up the process a tiny bit. But most of the major cities had been completely demolished by this stage, so one more bomb wasn't going to make a huge difference.

 

[withoutaface]

Where did Withoutaface get those stats from?

Wikipedia article on democide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

 

[YankeeChica]

I could go into heaps of detail, I just wrote a big nasty essay on this
Brief summary though: Truman and his staff knew that the bombs were not needed to end the war, as the Japanese were basically ready to surrender once they knew their Emperor was going to be safe. A land invasion was never going to be necessary, and so the figures are a distortion.
The basic true purpose of dropping the bomb was to make a big impact on Stalin and the Soviet Union. And it did help speed up the process a tiny bit. But most of the major cities had been completely demolished by this stage, so one more bomb wasn't going to make a huge difference.

Lies, proven by the fact that Japanese REFUSED to surrender even after Hiroshima was nuked. If they were ready to surrender they would not wait for another nuclear bomb. There was no change in Allied nations demands outlined on Potsdam declaration before and after the surrender.

 

[Josie]

Yankeechica, if you like, go read the diaries of Truman, Stimpson, Churchill, and others. They KNEW they didn't have to drop the bomb and said so. The evidence is there.
The reason they didn't surrender sooner was because the Americans refused to put the clause in saying they could keep the Emperor.
The Japanese sent a telegram to the US to negotiate surrender terms, but it was ignored.

 

[Josie]

WRONG. The Nagasaki bombing was as a result of the Japanese refusal to commit to an unconditional surrender.





I especiall loved this one:-



And this one:-



Source



Source

haha thanks. Having just written a big essay on this, I cbf finding online sources to link

 

[HotShot]

No. Just, no.

Bloodiest dictators for the millennium
mainly Empress Dowager Cixi 1859-64, Tai Ping Rebellion 12,000,000
Genghis Khan 1215–1233 4,000,000
Adolf Hitler 1933–1945 21,000,000
Chiang Kai-shek 1921–1948 10,000,000
Kublai Khan 1252–1279 19,000,000
Vladimir Lenin 1917–1924 4,000,000
Leopold II of Belgium 1885–1908 10,000,000
Pol Pot 1968–1987 2,000,000
Joseph Stalin 1929–1953 43,000,000
Hideki Tojo 1941–1945 4,000,000
Mao Zedong 1923–1976 77,000,000

EDIT: So your argument is that Bush has somehow managed to sweep the disappearance of 99 million people under the carpet?

Apart from

Bloodiest dictators for the millennium.Rummel, [2][3][4]. Note that Rummel's estimates for mass murder do not necessarily have broad academic acceptance

Just purely estimations?

Of American-Indians 16th–19th Century 13,778,000
14 million of 300 million? - 0.047

And thats only including the native americans.


99 million of a population of ? 1 billion = 0.099%

Take into consideration, WW2, Vietnam War, BOth Gulf Wars, Afganisatn...and then come back tell me that America is more credible than China?

 

[YankeeChica]

WRONG. The Nagasaki bombing was as a result of the Japanese refusal to commit to an unconditional surrender.





I especiall loved this one:-



And this one:-



Source



Source

Nothing of your post proved me wrong. You said their refusal for unconditional surrender leads to Nagasaki bombing. That is exactly what my argument is. They refused to surrender after Hiroshima whatever the reason was and Nagasaki was bombed. Japan surrendered unconditionally to the terms and conditions imposed by Allied nations ONLY after the bombings because the bomb works wonder There was no change in Potsdam declaration that is in effect the terms and conditions of japanese surrender from allies and no terms and conditions were allowed from japanese side. They merely have to surrender and they did. Thanks to the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Everyone knows that japan will surrender but it was not known when. The bombing was a wise move to save the lives of Allied soldiers who could have been killed unnecessarily by launching a land invasion of Japan. Why wait for months and get hundreds of thousands of your soldiers killed while you can avoid those altogether by nuking two cities and killing a few thousand Japanese?

History revisionism is on the rise an I bet you guys already argue that there was no need to invade and bomb Germany, there was no need to invade Iraq in 1990 etc.

 

[Josie]

We all that invading Iraq was stupid, but that's not revisionist history, that's just knowing that Bush is a fkn idiot.
As for bombing Germany, nah, we can do that

Yes, I am a revisionist historian (as a student), because I believe the world is NOT black and white, America Good, Muslim Bad.

 

[YankeeChica]

So it was wise to let Saddam invade Kuwait and occupy it? The Current president was not involved in the invasion of iraq in 1990.

I do not think it is revisionism, its just self-hating apologist who did that. They never look the other side of history and just keep blaming US,UK etc. If one look at the atrocities committed by japanese forces to allied nations. One would wish they use hundred nuclear bombs and annihilate Japan.

 

[Josie]

No, the whole point of revisionist theory is the look at both sides. But I'm not going into that here, because it's completely offtopic.
P.S When I say Bush, I mean both.

 

[withoutaface]

Apart from

Just purely estimations?

Of American-Indians 16th–19th Century 13,778,000
14 million of 300 million? - 0.047

And thats only including the native americans.


99 million of a population of ? 1 billion = 0.099%

Take into consideration, WW2, Vietnam War, BOth Gulf Wars, Afganisatn...and then come back tell me that America is more credible than China?

1. The number of Indians are also "only" estimates.
2. Learn to count you douche. 99M out of 1B is 9.9%.
3. You're claiming one life is worth more than another because they're a member of a smaller population, that's blatant racism.
4. Using WW2 for anything is moronic because the US stayed out of it until Japan bombed Pearl Harbour. Civilian deaths in the other wars you mentioned are 2 000 000 + 25 000 + 60 000 + 7000, which adds up to 2 082 000, which means the US still has 50 times the credibility of China.