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Bush's Creationism in schools remarks (1 Viewer)

Sepulchres

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gobaby said:
Sorry to break it to you, but religion is essentially designed as a means of mass oppression. In the past, the rich (king/chieftain etc.), would collude with the priesthood to create an environment that was safe for them to continue to exist in the lap of luxury whilst the poor endured bad living conditions, poor land rights etc. By telling the poor that God has placed them in their place and that their reward will come in the afterlife, revolution is avoided.
LOL. Its awesome come up with such things but in reality, there have been many, many revolutions in the name of religion so I dont really see how your logic works. Moreso, most religions condemn monarchies as "all men are equal" and encourage those who are higher in the social class to give charity so that the poor's "bad conditions" can be improved.


gobaby said:
Fortunately the rising living standards and education of the poor now allows them time to think and to realise that religion is a lie that should be abandoned as soon as possible.
Religion is a lie huh? So you have just outsmarted about 5.5 billion people who adhere to some sort of religion today. Must be hell of a lie to fool that many people while you here in the corner of the world is blessed with the truth. See, I dont have a problem with you being an atheist, but I do have a problem you telling us that religion is a lie. Live and let live.

gobaby said:
and excuse me, but "treating science like a religion?" while ur exaggeration doesn't make any sense, some of us chose to use our common sense and think rationally, rather than obey a carpenter that supposedly lived 2000 years ago.
May you and your fellow 'free-thinkers' live in prosper. I guess carpentery has become obsolete, we have run out of wood. :eek:
 

crazyhomo

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Sepulchres said:
LOL. Its awesome come up with such things but in reality, there have been many, many revolutions in the name of religion so I dont really see how your logic works.
such as?
 

Calculon

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Sepulchres said:
Moreso, most religions condemn monarchies as "all men are equal"
Do you know how many people die when a government says that?
 

Rafy

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My headmaster has lost the plot! Hes come out to support intellegent design in secondary education. One is happy that ive graduated from Kings.

Backing for intelligent design
By Shane Green
October 28, 2005

The headmaster of The King's School has thrown his support behind the discussion of the contentious theory of intelligent design in the nation's secondary schools.

Tim Hawkes has warned against gagging debate in schools on the theory, which argues that gaps in Charles Darwin's theory of evolution point to an "intelligent designer" of life.

Dr Hawkes has reviewed a DVD on intelligent design for the Campus Crusade for Christ, which is planning to distribute thousands of copies to Australian secondary schools in the next few months. In his review, Dr Hawkes says educators should not fear using the DVD, called Unlocking the Mystery of Life, which he says has a "legitimate case to put to students, and indeed, to humankind".

"There are undeniable weaknesses within Darwin's Theory of Evolution, and these must be acknowledged honestly," he writes. "Failure to do so would mean an abrogation of our responsibility as educators."

Dr Hawkes says that without necessarily pushing any particular religion, it is "quite legitimate to challenge students to think through the implications of there being a 'grand architect' of the universe". He argues that how the DVD is used should be the exclusive preserve of the principal and teachers. But he says it would be a shame if the DVD was "forever shackled" within religious education faculty, arguing it should be used within the science faculty and others that explored theory and scientific assumptions.

Dr Hawkes warned that distribution by Christian groups might compromise its acceptance, and said there should be a "totally transparent revelation" of those behind the making of the DVD.

The King's School, Australia's oldest independent school, is Anglican and widely regarded as the nation's most prestigious.

Dr Hawkes's entry into the debate coincides with a push by a

coalition representing 70,000 scientists and science teachers to prevent the teaching of intelligent design in science classes. In an open letter last week, they likened it to teaching the flat earth theory.

"Of all places, schools should be allowed to explore ideas and theories," Dr Hawkes said yesterday. "If we're all of a sudden going to get precious and say, 'Well, hang on, exploring this theory, this suggestion, is not to be allowed', then in fact I think we are being dishonest as educators."

Dr Hawkes supported the use of the DVD at his school, but said it would only be shown to senior students because of the concepts and language it used.

Bill Hodgson, head of Campus Crusade for Christ, said educators should "form their own opinion with first-hand assessment, rather than being told what to think by those who in many cases haven't even seen the DVD".
 

Rafy

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Its a PhD in Education, his thesis was about some theory of his regarding the specific methods of teaching boys.
A friend of mine talked to his teacher before the bio exam. Apparently most of the science teachers at kings are not too happy with Dr. Hawkes' comments. Even though its an Anglican school, the consensus is that religious teachings and views should stay within chapel services etc, and not start to trickle into other subjects

Intellegent design is NOT a scientific theory. It goes against all the principles of science. Science is about discovery and searching for definable answers for problems that can be tested. Intellegent design conversely, says that there is no answer, and that we shouldnt go searching for answers.....
Its quite a backward style of idea, and its why humans thought the Earth was flat for centuries


Damage Inc: Yesterday.
 

stainmepink

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Rafy said:
Intellegent design is NOT a scientific theory. It goes against all the principles of science. Science is about discovery and searching for definable answers for problems that can be tested. Intellegent design conversely, says that there is no answer, and that we shouldnt go searching for answers.....
Its quite a backward style of idea, and its why humans thought the Earth was flat for centuries


Damage Inc: Yesterday.
Yes, let's not go searching for answers. that is, lets stop asking questions and asume this invisible being spun his wand and popped out the earth in a total of 7 days. After all, the world is flat you know.
 
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Raginsheep

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Im assuming his theory was: "Boys minds are so complex that only only God or an super intelligent being can understand them. Now give me my doctorate!"
 

stainmepink

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Raginsheep said:
Im assuming his theory was: "Boys minds are so complex that only only God or an super intelligent being can understand them. Now give me my doctorate!"
Boys minds are so complex that only only God can understand them.... wow, thats almost an insult to our intelligence. And as a bonus, he wants to be dumb down the science course. After all who really belives the Big Bang theory, what with all its complexities. We can just say God spun the earth out of his fingers! *shrugs*
 
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stainmepink

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in response to Sepulchres, here is my argument, taken from the BBC website.
if you read this, you'll find numerous examples of religion being used as social control. I've even highlighted them in blue and red (for the most important points).

now what revolution has occured in the name of religion, for the good of the people? The French Revolution certainly abolished church authority, not the other way around.

and RELIGION TAUGHT US ALL MEN ARE EQUAL!?!?!? HAHAHAHHA!! NO WAY!! let me put it in simple terms for you:

religion said to the working peasants: "ok, lower class, i know your life is shit... but if you remain faithful to the church, you can have a great afterlife. i know the king seems to have everything but you don't even have enough bread to keep yourself alive... but that's ok! because it will get better when you die! meanwhile, serve the king because he's god's subject. give him your taxes. yeah."

RELIGION WAS PROPAGANDA.

and for the rest of you who can understand the real logic of religion, here is my argument.




Religion and Authority in the Ancient World

The first thing a ruler had to do was establish their authority to speak for their gods. The oldest existing legal code is that of Hammurabi of Sumer. Hammurabi's Code opens and closes with invocations to the gods, and it establishes Hammurabi's authority to create those laws as coming directly from the gods Anu, Bel, and Marduk. For instance:

Anu and Bel called by name me, Hammurabi, the exalted prince, who feared God, to bring about the rule of righteousness in the land, to destroy the wicked and the evil-doers; so that the strong should not harm the weak; so that I should rule over the black-headed people like Shamash, and enlighten the land, to further the well-being of mankind. - Hammurabi's Code
In the beginning of Western civilisation, the priests and the rulers were often one and the same. For example, Moses climbed a mountain and sat in secluded conversation with the god of the Hebrews before giving their laws to them. This gave him the authority to give his people simple instructions like 'Don't eat pork.' In the ancient times, people would not have known that you had to cook the meat thoroughly to kill contaminants in pork. But after having seen people eat it and die, it was much easier to say, 'It's unclean' than to have to explain that you could die from it, but nobody knew why.

In Egypt, the pharaoh was the reincarnation of the god Horus, who was given rulership over the earth, just as his father Osiris ruled the dead. His power was perceived to influence the cyclical Nile floods, which covered the surrounding land with such a fertile topsoil that the Egyptians could raise two crops per year. It is likely that the accomplishments of the Great Pyramids at Giza are due in no small part to the profound influence that the pharaoh's immediate divinity, and his perceived connection to the life-giving Nile floods, granted him over his people.

The Greeks had a very curious set of gods. They were more or less human, with human foibles and faults, and the things which might please them or offend them were rather arbitrary. This might have been born from the observation of the fickle nature of natural forces. Good things happen sometimes to bad people, and bad things happen to good people, and their theology reflected that. People began to trust in their own ability to govern themselves, and had to figure out the hows and whys of doing so. This led to the development of philosophy, and intelligent people stood around in the town square talking about things related to human behaviour, sciences, and the gods for a living.

Roman Authority

The Romans conquered the Greeks, and were much impressed by the Greek achievements in philosophy, as well as their religion. The Romans were curious and accepting of foreign ideas, and as they conquered more cultures, their religious beliefs and practices were welcomed and incorporated into the overall Roman culture. The conquered cultures likewise shared in the pre-existing Roman beliefs. It was an atmosphere of religious tolerance that has not been equalled since.

When the Roman Republic was replaced by the Roman Empire, Augustus Caesar was faced with the problem anew. How to convince the Empire to obey his word of law, rather than the old structure? He borrowed from the Egyptian culture and declared himself a god. In the religiously accepting empire, this didn't pose much difficulty. He became one of many gods, certainly not as powerful as Jupiter, but his presence here on earth and his position of rule made his authority more concrete than Jupiter's. The citizens paid homage to the emperor on his holiday, and life in the empire went on.

In the early days of the Roman Empire, only one culture did not join in this religious exchange. The Hebrew religion forbade participation in other religions, or even recognition of other gods. The emperor, who relied on his divine status for authority, had to consider their failure to recognise his divinity as a challenge to his legal right to rule. The Jews chafed at the stewardship of the pagan Romans, and this gave rise to the messianic movements. Messianic Jews rebelled against Roman rule time and again.

Emperor Constantine came to power in a tragically weakened empire. Internal competition for power had divided the empire in four. Constantine waged a successful war to reunite the empire politically. Constantine then turned his attention to uniting the empire culturally, and to do this he chose to implement a state religion. Although a member of the cult of Sol Invictus, Constantine cast aside his personal beliefs and examined each religion based solely on his political goals. He chose Christianity. Paul's internationalisation of the religion was a major selling point, as was the fact that the Old Testament establishes Yahweh as a warrior god.

Christianity itself, however, was extremely divided. So Constantine called the Council of Nicea in 325CE. Bishops from the entire empire (and some from Persia) gathered together to settle their differences. When they were finished, they had established a Christian orthodoxy. Bishops who refused to agree to that orthodoxy were killed as the first heretics. Backed by the emperor, the new Catholic (meaning universal) Church vigorously persecuted heresy wherever it could be found.

The Age of Feudalism

But eventually, external pressures became too much to bear, and in the 5th Century, the Western half of the empire collapsed. Barbarian raiding parties ravaged the countryside. Isolated and terrified, common citizens sought protection, which gave rise to the feudal lord. His authority was based on a social contract; the peasants worked his fields and served him, and he in turn gave them protection from marauders.

The church also came to rely on the feudal lords for protection. In exchange for this protection, the church offered a canon which granted the lord greater power over his subjects. By making virtues of meekness, obedience, poverty, and hard work, the church moulded the peasantry into the most desirable work force for the lord. The church also enriched themselves, by emphasising charity.

But this arrangement placed the lord in the position of authority over the church, and the church sought to reverse that. An important step towards that goal was made in 800CE, when Charlemagne was invited to Rome by Pope Leo III, and crowned emperor of Rome. This established the precedent that crowns were dispensed by the church. The tradition entrenched itself gradually, to the point that a monarch who was not crowned in a formal ceremony by a bishop or cardinal was not legally recognised as king or queen. The church used its unchecked power to raise awesome sums of money, build churches, wage wars, persecute dissenters, and engage in every form of vice known to man.

This growing abuse of power did not go unnoticed. In 1517 Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to a church door. This first act of defiance inspired many others, and soon everyone was questioning the very nature of god, the world, and the church. Philosophy was rediscovered by western civilization, and church influence began a slow but steady decline. New churches sprang up everywhere with new doctrines, and Christianity became even more divided than it had been at the time of the Council of Nicea.

Divine Right

Though church influence in government was waning, religious influence was not. Bishop Jacques-Benigne Bossuet proposed that his king, Louis XIV of France, ruled by divine right. The argument is based on the presupposition that the Christian god is omnipotent, omnipresent, and that everything that happens on earth is in accordance with his will. Under such a god, only the person chosen to be king could become king, and everything that such a king decreed would also have to be according to his god's will.

The concept of divine right passed unchecked power from the church to the monarch, and it wasn't long before monarchs began abusing power in the same ways the church had. Unfortunately for the monarchs, their power had been established as a secular one long before, and competition with the aristocracy was likewise well established. The English aristocracy had established the precedent of their authority to check monarchic power as early as 1215CE, with the Magna Carta. As British kings and queens attempted to exercise their divine right, the lords' resistance grew, and a slow, painful process of reform began, which continues to this day still.

The Rise of Secular Government

If the British aristocracy cared little for divine right, their colonists in the New World cared not at all. Many had fled the continent of Europe to escape persecution of their particular brand of Christianity. They acknowledged the authority of the king, but established their own local governments, based on purely secular authority, to handle the actual administration of the colonies. When Parliament passed laws that were perceived as an attempt to usurp those local governments, they appealed to the king. And when the king declared them in rebellion, they responded with full-scale rebellion. When they won their independence, they created the first government in Western history without a direct religious influence since Augustus Caesar. In the First Amendment to the Constitution, they expressly banned establishment of a state religion. The founders were primarily Deists, who believe in a Creator but do not believe he takes an active interest in human affairs.

The ideas spread. The French Revolution abolished church authority. In various ways and to various degrees, direct religious authority was removed from governments throughout Europe. Ambitious, charismatic leaders managed to acquire absolute power from time to time based on their own authority, but, from Napoleon to Hitler, such governments stood for very short times. They were brought down by internal and/or external resistance, and none lasted longer than the natural life of the founder.

Though the term 'humanism' would not be born for some time, governments throughout Western civilization were being founded on humanist principles; that humans have dignity and worth, and that human reason, knowledge, and experience are the most valid sources for creation of a code of ethics and law. Individual leaders may still adhere to their old religious doctrines, but these doctrines have been heavily influenced by the rise of secularism and humanism. For example, the Levitical pronouncement on the fate of gay men, while clearly established by religion, is rejected completely by all Western governments as well as all but the most rabidly fundamentalist minority of leaders and general citizens.

What Now?

In Western culture, religion has lost its validity as a legal basis for government. However, it does yet serve many individuals as a basis for personal morality and ethics. The moral and ethical systems are as diverse as the individuals who practice them, with influences of experience, environment, and interpretation added to the myriad varieties of available religions. And new religions appear all the time.

In the 20th Century, we saw that when people within the same government are divided on a political issue, and that division coincides with a religious boundary, escalation of hostilities is the inevitable result. The rise of the labour union, a class conflict, saw scattered rioting. The battle for racial equality in the US saw isolated acts of brutality and murder. But the violence in these movements pale beside those which also fell along religious differences.

The Northern Ireland conflict, for instance, is based on a political difference not unlike that of the peaceful difference between Quebecois separatists and their mostly English-descended unionist neighbours in Canada. The current Palestinian situation has been greatly exacerbated by religious disagreements, such as access to Mount Zion and the Temple on the Mount. And let us not forget that a prejudice in Germany, which divided the people religiously as well as racially, produced the Holocaust.

Though most of the world's governments have discarded religion as a basis for authority, violence associated with religious belief continues. But as humanism takes a greater hold on society, religious beliefs continue to splinter off in new directions. And the more personalised religious belief becomes, the more tolerating of religious differences we can become. When there aren't enough members of a particular religion to dominate a political disagreement, peaceful demonstration and reasonable discussion become realistic options for resolution.

Perhaps the next phase of our cultural evolution is the death of organised religion.



That's raw fact for you. My argument is logical, however, i don't see how yours works. What revolution has been in the name of religion? If religion makes you feel all comfy and fuzzy, well thats good for you. You live your sheltered life. i guess i'm "the devil" now, since i've brought you to your senses, hahaha
 
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Calculon

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fantasia said:
Go to Google and type in "failure." take a look at the first result that comes up. :)
Thanks for that, but you're about 5 years behind.
 

stainmepink

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By the way, i think the name "Intelligent Design" is rather ironic.


there is nothing intelligent about religion.
 

Generator

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This thread will do.

Christian schools hit back over origin of life

Christian schools have defended their right to teach intelligent design in science classes to explain the origin of life, accusing sceptical scientists and teachers of "ideological conservatism".
Never mind the oft-stated fact that

"There is not a single research paper on intelligent design - no empirical evidence," [the president-elect of the Australian Science Teachers Association, Paul Carnemolla,] said.

"This is a belief system and it's based on faith. It can't stand up to scientific scrutiny."
 
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Kaiser Zero

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gobaby said:
By the way, i think the name "Intelligent Design" is rather ironic.


there is nothing intelligent about religion.

That's perfectly correct.
 

stainmepink

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Kaiser Zero said:
That's perfectly correct.
thanx kaiser. i would have given you a green box or rep points, if only the mods would introduce the system back in. *grumbles*
 

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