Catholic Church and HIV/AIDS in Africa. (1 Viewer)

[SylviaB]

You cant prove that any of it didn't happen.

1. Something asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

2. You're the one making the claim. Unless you can back up your claim with evidence, then there's no reason why I should believe it.

a) Someone at your school that teaches religion
b) Someone who is an active participant in the Church community.

There's no point, they can't offer me any proof and talk only about faith, with is a load of crap because every other religion talks about faith.

I look at it from a Biblical perspective, you look at it from an evolutionary perspective. Therefore I am not wrong, you are just unwilling to accept other people's views.

Evolution is a FACT though. The bible has no proof.

Bit of a difference there, no?

 

[ablle]

You cant prove that any of it didn't happen.

I am god. You can't prove otherwise.

You can't prove the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist (although every educated individual knows he does). You can't prove Buddha didn't exist. You can't prove Allah doesn't exist.

lol at that picture.

 

[kalamari]

1. Something asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

2. You're the one making the claim. Unless you can back up your claim with evidence, then there's no reason why I should believe it.





There's no point, they can't offer me any proof and talk only about faith, with is a load of crap because every other religion talks about faith.


Evolution is a FACT though. The bible has no proof.

Bit of a difference there, no?

Sigh...

Nope im pretty sure your still:

"a fucking moron. Seriously."


"1. Something asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

Therefore your claims of the Bible being bogus can be dismissed without evidence.

"There's no point, they can't offer me any proof and talk only about faith, with is a load of crap because every other religion talks about faith"

What makes you think you can find a better explanation here.

On another note i took the time to find my own comic that successfully represents the way you go about your arguments:

 

[Cookie182]

Sylvester learn to read the posts where we have discussed just about everything you mentioned here.

Also your argument is stupid

"Nothing unverifiable here, unless you can prove otherwise."

You cant prove that any of it didn't happen.

If you want to have a deep and meaningful conversation about God, go speak to:

a) Someone at your school that teaches religion
b) Someone who is an active participant in the Church community.
c) Anyone who is willing to listen to what you have to say (and no, at this present time, that person is not me.)

"HUMANS ARE ANIMALS THAT EVOLVED LIKE ANY OTHER ANIMAL.
therefore, you are wrong."

I look at it from a Biblical perspective, you look at it from an evolutionary perspective. Therefore I am not wrong, you are just unwilling to accept other people's views.

I was never disrespectful of your opinions at all. But you continued to be disrespectful towards mine. Why don't you read posts from Tully B. and Empyrean444 to learn how to conduct an argument whilst still be respectful of another persons view. In the meantime:

"You are a fucking moron. Seriously."

They're not equally valid. Your 'opinion' holds not truth as it is backed by no viable evidence. Evolution has much transcended a theory- it is the best rational explanation for the existence of life so far and any evangelical, backwards religious interpretation of genesis literally is delusional. Even prominent religious academics accept Evolution and warn against literalist 'perspectives'. I think you need to watch astrophysicist and Catholic priest (former head of the Vatican observatory) George Coyne:

YouTube - Father George Coyne Interview (1/7) - Richard Dawkins

[To Quote] "If I looked to religion for an explanatory basis of the universe, I'd be an atheist."

 

[Tully B.]

Sylvester learn to read the posts where we have discussed just about everything you mentioned here.

Also your argument is stupid

"Nothing unverifiable here, unless you can prove otherwise."

You cant prove that any of it didn't happen.

You need too pick up a dictionary and look up "unverifiable".
Don't read any further until you have.

Ok, now do you understand what I and every other person who is arguing against you is trying to say when they state that much of the bible in unverifiable? Of course the statement that the bible is false is also unverifiable, but that doesn't change the fact that the existence of God and all the supernatural events within the bible are ALSO unverifiable. So know, no-one has to verify that the bible is unverifiable, ok?

You should know better Tully. I don't concede:



That is my overall opinion on this topic and no amount of persuasive, well worded questions will change that at this present point in time. I will however, continue to research the topic further.

Yes, indeed. I should have known better. Just like faith itself, you stand opposed to all evidence which conflicts with your opinion. You practically conceded to my central argument, that the Church has had a negative influence on Africa (whether counterbalanced by a positive influence or not), but couldn't bring yourself to concede that it amounted to a concession

 

[Tully B.]

I'm sorry Kalamari, but Sylvester's cartoon is much, much funnier than yours. Perhaps because it makes sense...

 

[kalamari]

They're not equally valid. Your 'opinion' holds not truth as it is backed by no viable evidence. Evolution has much transcended a theory- it is the best rational explanation for the existence of life so far and any evangelical, backwards religious interpretation of genesis literally is delusional. Even prominent religious academics accept Evolution and warn against literalist 'perspectives'. I think you need to watch astrophysicist and Catholic priest (former head of the Vatican observatory) George Coyne:

YouTube - Father George Coyne Interview (1/7) - Richard Dawkins

[To Quote] "If I looked to religion for an explanatory basis of the universe, I'd be an atheist."

I think your missing the point, I'm not equipped with a depth of knowledge that enables me to answer all your questions. If I could answer your questions I would have started a thread about God, the Bible and everything in it. But the point is I can't prove to you that the Bible is real. I believe everything in it and I'm not forcing you to do the same. Also just because one Catholic Priest says he disagrees with something does not mean I have to do the same, Nor does it make him any less of a Catholic. Whilst the religious interpretation of Genesis may be delusional to you, It is crystal clear to me and no "Youtube" video will convince me otherwise.

 

[Cookie182]

You need too pick up a dictionary and look up "unverifiable".
Don't read any further until you have.

Ok, now do you understand what I and every other person who is arguing against you is trying to say when they state that much of the bible in unverifiable? Of course the statement that the bible is false is also unverifiable, but that doesn't change the fact that the existence of God and all the supernatural events within the bible are ALSO unverifiable. So know, no-one has to verify that the bible is unverifiable, ok?



Yes, indeed. I should have known better. Just like faith itself, you stand opposed to all evidence which conflicts with your opinion. You practically conceded to my central argument, that the Church has had a negative influence on Africa (whether counterbalanced by a positive influence or not), but couldn't bring yourself to concede that it amounted to a concession

It also concedes the negative effects in general on human education. Teaching irrational and logic denying ignorance against rational, evidenced based science

Lets take a moment to remember John Lennon:

"Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace..."

 

[kalamari]

You need too pick up a dictionary and look up "unverifiable".
Don't read any further until you have.

Ok, now do you understand what I and every other person who is arguing against you is trying to say when they state that much of the bible in unverifiable? Of course the statement that the bible is false is also unverifiable, but that doesn't change the fact that the existence of God and all the supernatural events within the bible are ALSO unverifiable. So know, no-one has to verify that the bible is unverifiable, ok?

Pretty much why I said his argument was stupid...

Yes, indeed. I should have known better. Just like faith itself, you stand opposed to all evidence which conflicts with your opinion. You practically conceded to my central argument, that the Church has had a negative influence on Africa (whether counterbalanced by a positive influence or not), but couldn't bring yourself to concede that it amounted to a concession

I think if you read my post I didn't concede to anything, I remained solid in my original statement, that being that I don't find it justifiable to blame the Catholic Church. "Influence" does not mean responsibility for the magnitude of HIV/AIDS in Africa.

I don't believe the church holds any direct responsibly. however, the church does feed off the vast ignorant dolts in sub Sahara Africa.

At the end of the day its the individual that makes the final decision NOT the church, and therefore the buck stops with the individual.

 

[Tully B.]

It also concedes the negative effects in general on human education. Teaching irrational and logic denying ignorance against rational, evidenced based science

Lets take a moment to remember John Lennon:

"Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace..."

Good point, good song, good post. I thank you, sir.

 

[SylviaB]

Therefore your claims of the Bible being bogus can be dismissed without evidence.

Nope, I provided evidence.

On another note i took the time to find my own comic that successfully represents the way you go about your arguments:

My comic is literally what you do.

You actually make a claim and then say "You can't prove otherwise."

Your comic is just stupid and unfunny.

"You are a fucking moron. Seriously."

James 3:9:With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God’s likeness. 10 Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. 11 Can both fresh water and salta water flow from the same spring? 12 My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.

 

[Cookie182]

I think your missing the point, I'm not equipped with a depth of knowledge that enables me to answer all your questions. If I could answer your questions I would have started a thread about God, the Bible and everything in it. But the point is I can't prove to you that the Bible is real. I believe everything in it and I'm not forcing you to do the same. Also just because one Catholic Priest says he disagrees with something does not mean I have to do the same, Nor does it make him any less of a Catholic. Whilst the religious interpretation of Genesis may be delusional to you, It is crystal clear to me and no "Youtube" video will convince me otherwise.

Nah, I'm smarter then you, I think you’re the one missing the point. Why am I smarter?

"If I could answer your questions...But the point is I can't prove to you that the Bible is real...I believe everything in it...just because one Catholic Priest says he disagrees with [basically everything in the Bible, literally interpreted]...It is crystal clear to me and no "Youtube" video will convince me otherwise."

That's called absolute ignorance. Every word that leaves your fingertips is un-validated. It is sad, and I encourage you to explore further how your brain came to be this way. Your not the only deluded person, be sure your a majority. Which is a worrying concern, given that you basically admitted to accepting 'truth' when no truth was given. It's like deciding to believe that 5+5= 30 and not changing your mind, despite its falsehood. This kid of illogical thinking poses harm to humanity, particularly when it is drilled into children (without their consent) basically guaranteeing that they will grow up to believe it as reality (would be a safe bet that you come from a religious family). This leads to conflict, hatred, bigotry, separation over........nothing.

The only value I think the Bible offers is several allegories for moral experiences and love. This alone does not require belief in anything supernatural, and by all means, selected moral teachings should be liberally explored. However, any text is heavily weighed by its context and we must accept that they reflect on the opinions at the time, and social conditions have evolved. After all, Jesus himself was a challenger of the status quo, so if anything, you should challenge current religious thought (as he did to the Old Testament).

 

[kalamari]

Nah, I'm smarter then you, I think you’re the one missing the point. Why am I smarter?

"If I could answer your questions...But the point is I can't prove to you that the Bible is real...I believe everything in it...just because one Catholic Priest says he disagrees with [basically everything in the Bible, literally interpreted]...It is crystal clear to me and no "Youtube" video will convince me otherwise."

That's called absolute ignorance. Every word that leaves your fingertips is un-validated. It is sad, and I encourage you to explore further how your brain came to be this way. Your not the only deluded person, be sure your a majority. Which is a worrying concern, given that you basically admitted to accepting 'truth' when no truth was given. It's like deciding to believe that 5+5= 30 and not changing your mind, despite its falsehood. This kid of illogical thinking poses harm to humanity, particularly when it is drilled into children (without their consent) basically guaranteeing that they will grow up to believe it as reality (would be a safe bet that you come from a religious family). This leads to conflict, hatred, bigotry, separation over........nothing.

The only value I think the Bible offers is several allegories for moral experiences and love. This alone does not require belief in anything supernatural, and by all means, selected moral teachings should be liberally explored. However, any text is heavily weighed by its context and we must accept that they reflect on the opinions at the time, and social conditions have evolved. After all, Jesus himself was a challenger of the status quo, so if anything, you should challenge current religious thought (as he did to the Old Testament).

I seriously can not believe what you just wasted your time writing. It's "absolute ignorance" to think you can change what I believe in just because you think its "un-validated."

The only reason it leads to "conflict, hatred, bigotry, separation" is because people like you fail to accept that people have different views to your own.

My opinion is my opinion. Your opinion is your opinion. They are not and will not be the same. Nor will I ever try and force you into thinking what I think.

"The only value I think the Bible offers is several allegories for moral experiences and love."

To me it is far more valuable then any of these things.

How about you go and start a thread about the Bible, God, Evolution etc etc and have a debate with people who are willing to discuss these things, I am sure there would be many.

The only "absolute ignorance" I see is coming from you and "I encourage you to explore further how your brain came to be this way."

 

[Tully B.]

I think if you read my post I didn't concede to anything, I remained solid in my original statement, that being that I don't find it justifiable to blame the Catholic Church. "Influence" does not mean responsibility for the magnitude of HIV/AIDS in Africa.

How does influence not translate to blame? They have negatively influenced the spread of AIDS in Africa, and if they stopped doing certain things (such as preventing people's education), then the situation would be much, much better. How on earth does this not equate to blame?

What circumstance does equate to blame, then?

 

[Cookie182]

I seriously can not believe what you just wasted your time writing. It's "absolute ignorance" to think you can change what I believe in just because you think its "un-validated."

The only reason it leads to "conflict, hatred, bigotry, separation" is because people like you fail to accept that people have different views to your own.

My opinion is my opinion. Your opinion is your opinion. They are not and will not be the same. Nor will I ever try and force you into thinking what I think.

"The only value I think the Bible offers is several allegories for moral experiences and love."

To me it is far more valuable then any of these things.

How about you go and start a thread about the Bible, God, Evolution etc etc and have a debate with people who are willing to discuss these things, I am sure there would be many.

The only "absolute ignorance" I see is coming from you and "I encourage you to explore further how your brain came to be this way."

You keep trying to emphasise this point, like it gives you some condolences. You wouldn't force it onto me, and mine isn't an opinion. It's a conclusion based on the only system of clear thinking we know...a thing called logic.

Basically, I can't believe you wasted your time writing all that, when you could of just said:

IM A RETART

Edit: Yes, it's people like myself who cause bigotry- because I condem people for premarital relations, condem homo/trans-sexuals to eternal hell fire, concede that everyone who is atheistic to my beliefs is going to hell (in others words, cause a massive war over who is right), etc

God damn the liberal, ethical anti-theist.

 

[ablle]

God damn the liberal, ethical anti-theist.

God damn you to hell. Oh wait, he already has!

 

[joseph777]

Honestly, this has been one of the best reads i've had in a long time. However I do think that it has gone way off topic. Kalamari has already stated that he is not changing his view that the Church should not be held responsible in any way for the Aids/HIV epidemic in Africa. (and bloody good on you Kalamari for standing up for what you believe). And Tulley B has given the most relevant and by far the most sophisticated argument saying that the Catholic Church should hold some responsibility. So yes, both sides have laid there arguments, with both sides' arguments being valid. But THIS HAS TURNED INTO AN ARGUMENT ABOUT WHETHER GOD EXISTS AND WHETHER THE BIBLE IS BULLCRAP OR NOT!!

I think what would be a relevant addition to this argument would be for me to clarify why the Church is against the use of contraceptives (if you don't already know). The Church does not condoms because it is a barrier to life. The Church teaches that when you marry someone, you give yourself to each other wholly, and the condom is a barrier to this full giving if oneself to one's spouse. The Church does not encourage sex before marriage because sex is the highest form of love and it believes that this highest form of love can only be given in marriage because, in effect, the two lovers are becoming one, giving themselves to each other. The child that they produce is (as the Church says) a gift from God. THAT is why the Church will never encourage condoms, because, in a sense, the use of a condom prevents that full giving of oneself. These are the teachings of the Church, and no matter how hard the media, individuals, and even some factions within the Church push, it will never alter its stand.

oh can someone please explain to me how the Church prevents sex education in Africa? I fail to see it physically stopping teachers and governments telling the people about sex.

 

[Tully B.]

oh can someone please explain to me how the Church prevents sex education in Africa? I fail to see it physically stopping teachers and governments telling the people about sex.

There are many ways that they can do it, but only one that I can verify.

The Bush administration, strongly urged by the Catholic Church (and the Catholic voters), put an end to all contraceptives being sent from America to Africa, as well various educational tools, such as pamphlets and text books (I think it was Clinton who instigated the program).

There are other ways in which they do it, which I will get back to you on.

 

[SylviaB]

So influence doesn't make you guilty?

Okay we should absolve all responsibility for bullies who "influence" their victims to commit suicide.

 

[Tully B.]

So influence doesn't make you guilty?

Okay we should absolve all responsibility for bullies who "influence" their victims to commit suicide.

Good analogy. We're all about analogies on this thread.