Does God exist? (22 Viewers)

[AntiHyper]

Haven't you seen the drawings or the movies?? Jesus had blue eyes and light brown hair and a cool soul patch, and he spoke English with a Midwest American accent.

Jesus is a middle-eastern arabic man, much like the people in Jerusalem in this day.

There is also a sort of placebo affect in prayer, as it calms the believer's nerves and enables them to focus on the task at hand.

It also enables suicide bombers to enter such calming trance to do his act.

 

[littlewing69]

Jesus is a middle-eastern arabic man, much like the people in Jerusalem in this day.

That was my point.

It also enables suicide bombers to enter such calming trance to do his act.

True. Brainwashing helps as well.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Wow 177 pages and counting, in a topic neither side can prove one way or the other.

I can't definitively prove one way or another that by driving off a cliff you're going to die but I will still argue that it's a bad idea

 

[littlewing69]

Actually based on the census data, the number of christians as a percentage of the population has been continuosly declining since 1954. If you had read the link I posted, you would see that it was from a christian perspective discussing the decline in church attendance. I think it is the extremes that are on the increase, while the moderates are gradually turning away from christianity.

Definitely. Affiliation with Christian denominations and church-attendance have all declined steadily since WWII. Notable exceptions are Orthodoxy (postwar immigration) and Pentecostals and Charismatics who are presently enjoying a fair bit of growth, especially in younger demographics.

Mainline, moderate denominations are falling, especially with young people, and evangelicals are on the rise, relatively.

I'm curious as to whether this is a decrease in religiosity amongst Australians, or an increasing willingness to label yourself as "without religion" rather than nominally assuming the denomination your parents/grandparents were active within.

 

[sam04u]

God would want what's best for mankind. It's all a matter of religion however the 'jews', 'christians' and 'muslims' all believe in one god. Here are some things that people are misguided about.

1. God created the universe for us. (Wrong)
2. God existed before all time? God knows how he was created? (False)
3. God created mankind as a test of 'faith'.
4. God gives people messages.
5. God answers people prayers.

(God, already knows the outcomes of man, He managed to 'create' the universe single handedly, and modelled it. )

God does have some 'moral' rules which he expects people to abide by so that society remains pure and empty of filth. I think I explained to 'UIC' what was immoral and wrong and I could easily remake the list if someone wants. As to whether heaven is a 'physical' state is questionable, It's upto the individual to believe where he will 'go' when he dies, and I think it has to do with how he lived his life.

Here is an analogy, you were at the park and promised that if you behaved you would get an ice-cream. Your parents lied and there was no ice-cream. You had some fun while behaving, your parents had less stress and worry, your clothes remained untorn and you didn't pick up that syringe which would have resulted in you being infected with aids.

You didn't get 'Ice Cream', but look at what you did get God Exists.

 

[littlewing69]

You didn't get 'Ice Cream', but look at what you did get God Exists.

I'm not a big fan of your dishonest God.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

So God really is some asshole who's fucking with our brains? Awesome.

 

[BradCube]

2. God existed before all time? God knows how he was created? (False)

I'm not so much interested in your other comments as they seem to be based on your own personal opinion rather than substantiated evidence - although I am quite happy for you to point out your reasoning.

Point 2 however caught my attention. I think that the general belief of an omnipotent God is that he was never created, rather he just exists. The reason I have trouble getting my mind around this is because of the fact that I exist in a created world that has a point in time when things change and not neccessarily because it is an impossibility.

So in answer to point 2, God cannot possibley know when he was created because there was never a specific moment in time where he came into existance.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Brad:

Do you accept that God knows all and that we have Free Will?

 

[BradCube]

Brad:

Do you accept that God knows all and that we have Free Will?

Interesting point, and I know where you are going with it.

If God knows all at the creation of the universe, then he must have foreplanned the choices we make since he created us that way to make those choices therefore nullifying the concept of free will.

It's something I am still dealing with and trying to understand to be honest. On one hand I know that I have complete free will since I choose every key I press as I respond to you here. But on the other hand, it seems entirely possible that an omnipontent God would know perfectly well what I am typing to you even before I type it.

I wonder though whether it is possible for an omnipotent God, being all powerful, to create a system where he allows free will yet knows the the outcome of that free will. Is it possible that at the creation of the universe, he created beings without pre-destining their existance? It goes beyond what my brain is used to dealing with normally, but of course that doesn't give any reflection on what is possible since I am not God.

So in answer, I don't know how to answer, because while in theory it would seem to be an impossibility, in real life it seems entirely possible.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

So in answer, I don't know how to answer, because while in theory it would seem to be an impossibility, in real life it seems entirely possible.

How does it seem entirely possible in real life?

I wonder though whether it is possible for an omnipotent God, being all powerful, to create a system where he allows free will yet knows the the outcome of that free will.

So being all powerful goes beyond logic? How interesting is it that now your God has to lie beyond even logic/reality (as we know it) its self to exist.

 

[littlewing69]

How does it seem entirely possible in real life?

How do you test free will? I mean, I consider several possibilities every time I make a choice, but I only ever make that choice once, so how do I know I'm actually free to choose? Free choice could be an illusion. I can't think of any way to test it objectively, but I'm sure with your philosophical knowledge you have some sort of argument for free will? You don't sound like a determinist to me

So being all powerful goes beyond logic? How interesting is it that now your God has to lie beyond even logic/reality (as we know it) its self to exist.

Could God create a taco so spicy even he couldn't eat it? The complications of omnipotence...

 

[BradCube]

How does it seem entirely possible in real life?

By the fact that I know entirely that I independantly make my own choices.

So being all powerful goes beyond logic? How interesting is it that now your God has to lie beyond even logic/reality (as we know it) its self to exist.

I don't think it is so much lying to the logic that we know, but rather there is further logic that we, or at least I, do not understand.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

How do you test free will? I mean, I consider several possibilities every time I make a choice, but I only ever make that choice once, so how do I know I'm actually free to choose? Free choice could be an illusion. I can't think of any way to test it objectively, but I'm sure with your philosophical knowledge you have some sort of argument for free will? You don't sound like a determinist to me

I have very little philisophical knowledge to be honest, as in I'm not a big-time philosophy reader. As far as free will goes, eh... maybe we don't have free will. I mean I think in the context of our reality, as far as we can see it, we have a sense of free will, but overall I don't think we do have any choice. Given all that has happened to lead us to the fork in the road, I think if it happened 1,000,000 times (somehow) we'd always come to the same answer.

So yea, I actually do see free choice as somewhat of an illusion.

Could God create a taco so spicy even he couldn't eat it? The complications of omnipotence...

Yep. If you are to say tho that God exists outside/beyond our known logic then I suppose you can say that question its' self is pointless. Just seems to me like pushing god further and further into little crevices of our reality tho.

By the fact that I know entirely that I independantly make my own choices.

But you DON'T know entirely that God exists and knows all. You also, imo, don't know that you make your own choices...

I don't think it is so much lying to the logic that we know, but rather there is further logic that we, or at least I, do not understand.

I think that's what I meant? I didn't mean lying as in a lie, I meant that God exists beyond our logic.

 

[BradCube]

But you DON'T know entirely that God exists and knows all. You also, imo, don't know that you make your own choices...

If we get into this area, where we no longer believe that we make any of our own choices, then it seems far more likely to me that we are providing basis for an argument for the existence of God, since there must be someone or something that makes the choices.

If we also look at this logic it means that we are not at all responsible for the actions we perform. It would seem very hard to me to justify this stance in real world, especially in regard to law.

I think that's what I meant? I didn't mean lying as in a lie, I meant that God exists beyond our logic.

Ok, sorry for the mis-understanding. I would have to agree with this then. This concept of God being beyond our logic does not seem all that interesting to me. It applies in the same way to creations we make. For example if a potter is to make a jar, the jar, once created, will not undertand the logic that was going on in the potters mind and will not have the same knowledge that the potter does.

Of course, I realise that I am ignoring the fact that the jar does not have conciousness, but you understand what I mean and the principal is still the same right?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

If we get into this area, where we no longer believe that we make any of our own choices, then it seems far more likely to me that we are providing basis for an argument for the existence of God, since there must be someone or something that makes the choices.

It doesn't have to be a God.. it can just be the processes of nature that has lead to your existance and provided you with such choices to which your history means it's obvious you'll only come to one answer.

If we also look at this logic it means that we are not at all responsible for the actions we perform.

Yes. In some way I believe responsibility is also something made up, but for us in our limited little reality looking at it from a limited perspective - there is definately the appearance of 'choice'.

Of course, I realise that I am ignoring the fact that the jar does not have conciousness, but you understand what I mean and the principal is still the same right?

Yes I understand your argument. It is the two computer's talking to each other argument essentially. Two computer's saying 'were we created?'. Now we have two things logically trying to work out whether they were created by an outside force or not, of which they have no way of getting knowledge of.

The idea of God being beyond us is definately interesting to me, because if we can never reach God, if we have no REASON to believe he is there then to me it is illogical to do so. Of course, it is also illogical to affirm that he is not there, but we are somewhat emotional inductive creatures and we make guesses from what we know... if there is no evidence for something, than as far as we know, it does not exist.

 

[sam04u]

Nope, definately wrong. There is Free-Will to a relative extent and the outcomes of the universe could happen many different times over. (Based on chemical reactions in the brain). Think about a game of 'Hang-man' sometimes one insignificant arrangement of neurons propagating electrical signals. Sometimes It's completely coincidental, and even if it happened twice it would result in a different impulse. A different answer, which could theoretically change the outcomes of mankind significantly.

Free-Will exists In the smaller choices which effect lives, decision making over trivial things like, 'will i listen to this song, or that?'.


Re: BradCube
I think it would be most logical as to why 'god' would create man in his image, I would be willing to explain this to you later. It's not to say 'god existed before all time', as god's existance is somewhat 'taboo' as not to 'involve mankind'. Man has a brain which is relatively unique, it allows for both 'creative thinking' with 'logical thinking', could we ever replicate such thinking? (quite impossible i'd say). It's why man has answers to some things which other species may never have, the ability to be creative. (music, culture, fashion, food, passion and love).

Would god use man to answer his questions? Why would we exist if our sole purpose would be to see who was worthy when he would know? There is only one reason which would explain why 'god' would create mankind. It would be so that they could 'experience' a short life and see how much they care about life. It's almost every mans dream to be immortal, the man who followed religion would have an immortal life of pleasures and happiness beyond human emotions. Whereas, the man who lived carelessly and didn't care about immortality would be punished for eternity. I guess it measures people ability to want immortality as the most sane and deserving of 'Heaven'.

It's just one Idea but I prefer the 'Ice Cream' Idea. It's beyond your logic but It wouldn't truly be a measure of faith.

 

[P_Dilemma]

Argh, what's the name of that principle? Apothic, anthopic...

Well, it goes like this:

Because we, as humans, exist (to behold the universe), then the universe exists. Conversely, if humans didn't exist, neither would the universe.

Ok, i know some of you will be saying that it doesn't matter if we exist or not, the universe wil still be there, but you're missing the point.

Anyway, if we were to apply the theory to God, or whatever is out there, then "God exists only because we exist".

Confusing...

-P_D

[EDIT] Ah that's right, it's called the Anthropic Principle!

 

[sam04u]

Yeah, that's a possibility. If no one knew god existed then theoretically god would not exist. But, if that was the case god would have made his presence known to a greater extent. It's logical to only a certain extent but not something which would be a sustainable argument as to 'why'.

 

[littlewing69]

Anyway, if we were to apply the theory to God, or whatever is out there, then "God exists only because we exist".

"If God didn't exist it would be necessary to create him"?