Does God exist? (14 Viewers)

[Squar3root]

View attachment 42982

same vibe lmao

 

[A(theist)]

It's so amusing when atheists always say this same burden script, hilarious.

Anyways ... Let's do this

P1-A: Some things are in motion.
P2-A: If some things are in motion, then they are put in motion by another.
C-A: Therefore, they are put in motion by another.

P1-B: If they are put in motion by another, then either this goes on to infinity or it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other.
P2-B: They are put in motion by another. C-B: Therefore, either this goes on to infinity or it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other

P1-C: Either this goes on to infinity or it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other
P2-C: But this cannot go on to infinity.
C-C: Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other.


Superlatively proven:

Premise 1: Amongst existences, there are certain beings that are greater/lesser in respects of being (hot, cold, funny).

Premise 2: Greater and lesser are terms that necessitate superlatives.

Premise 3: Superlatives of the respects are the cause of the gradations of being in said respect (heat energy would be ultimately responsible for the gradation of heat in all things that are hot/cold).

Premise 4: If superlatives do not exist, then there is no objective referent for these degrees. Premise 5: Statements without an objective referent are non-cognitive.

Conclusion 1: Therefore the superlatives of these respects of being objectively exist.

Premise 6: Degrees of certain respects resemble the superlative of that respect. (PPC).
Premise 7: Transcendentals have gradation. (Truth, Goodness, existence, reality, unity)
Conclusion 2: The superlatives of these gradations exist (From P5 and C1)

Premise 8: Existence, Truth, Goodness and unity itself have gradation. (Transcendentals)
Conclusion 3: There is a superlative existence and reality which is the necessary foundation for all other grades of existence, goodness, truth and unity. (P3 and P6)

Conclusion 4: The necessary superlative existence is what is known as God.

If you want the predicate notation tell me, otherwise list the premise which you disagree with and explain why

The Superlative argument doesn't work, it falls into sorites paradox and furthermore for every maximally perfect thing there is going to be an inverse, I accept the first argument from motion from Aquinas but can you defend it from someone who adopts Humean causality or is an anti-realist?

 

[HazzRat]

The Superlative argument doesn't work, it falls into sorites paradox and furthermore for every maximally perfect thing there is going to be an inverse, I accept the first argument from motion from Aquinas but can you defend it from someone who adopts Humean causality or is an anti-realist?

 

[A(theist)]

View attachment 44346

Just correcting a few things from them :/

 

[idkkdi]

ye sure they can believe but whats the point? u get purpose in your life? is there no purpose in your life without god? that seems rather bleak.

without the afterlife being in the picture it seems like anything faith could bring, similarly a person could get themselves. at that point whats the use in spending energy or time on this at all

^ my train of thought prior to this still stands. seems like pseudo-intellectual nuance on something pointless

 

[A(theist)]

^ my train of thought prior to this still stands. seems like pseudo-intellectual nuance on something pointless

Can I provide some input or is this directed at their response?

 

[dan964]

Daniel especially you, I want to show you how you presuppose things subsequent to having to presuppose a preceding first mover or uncaused causer, identical to the theistic worldview, without any empirical evidence like you require of God such as axioms.

Umm, you do realise I am Christian as well so I do hold the theistic worldview. You might have your wires crossed with the person I was engaging with...

P1-A: Some things are in motion.
P2-A: If some things are in motion, then they are put in motion by another.
C-A: Therefore, they are put in motion by another.

P1-B: If they are put in motion by another, then either this goes on to infinity or it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other.
P2-B: They are put in motion by another. C-B: Therefore, either this goes on to infinity or it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other

P1-C: Either this goes on to infinity or it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other
P2-C: But this cannot go on to infinity.
C-C: Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other.

Arguments like these are helpful in establishing that it isn't irrational to believe in God BUT the real objection to this argument is that it is insufficient proof for God's existence because all this establishes is there is a first mover, it does not establish the divinity nor the personal-ness of this first mover (this is why special revelation is needed aka for Christians, the person of Jesus Christ etc).

The argument hinges on whether all things are put in motion by something external to the system of the motion, and the counter premise is that maybe it doesn't hold true at the beginning of the universe (e.g. self causality) but this is where empirical evidence comes in. Since the empirical evidence thus far establishes causality as how the universe functions, then it is more reasonable to hold to P2-A then its antithesis, the latter of which is speculation.

It is basically asking the question where does the initial force to kickstart the universes expansion and energy to start the creation of matter to come from, AKA where does the bang come from in the Big Bang?