Does God exist? (41 Viewers)

[aerynlikewhoa]

If God exists or not, there are going to be as many people who believe in him as there are who don't. You can't ever argue something with that much faith, that much power, because you're arguing against the biggest wall in human history. Personally, I prefer faith in oneself over something in a book. trying to understand and argue against religion is this smily face trying to do the same to me or you.

But meh. Other people have their beliefs and we should accept it. Arguing isn't going to change that. But pondering, I suppose, might change one persons veiw. So go ahead.
*dances*

 

[Dumsum]

Christians can't prove to athiests the existance of God, because they are closed to the idea, and no matter what evidence is presented to them they will dismiss it. Agnostics are easier to work with, and agnosticism is a much more logical "belief" system than athiesm, as it is potentially the most unbiased.

Basically, while ever you're closed to the idea of God, you won't ever believe that he exists.

And no matter how much you say it, the onus is not on us to prove that God exists. We are called to spread the "Good News" (although that sounds terribly cheesy I admit), we can't make other peoples' choices for them.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

And no matter how much you say it, the onus is not on us to prove that God exists.

Yes, it is - in terms of this argument. Just as the onus of my proving that I was abducted by aliens last night is on me. We do not assume that it is true until you prove it false.

See shifting the burden of proof in the argument guide.

 

[Dumsum]

What shall we say then? Even if someone came up with "undeniable" scientific "proof" that the christian God exists, are you 100% certain that you would then believe it? Assuming yes, would you then go ahead and live the way Jesus prescribed we should? Belief in God doesn't get you anywhere.

The argument of existance is futile.

29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

It's not explicitly stated here but from other sections (I could find them if you like) I believe God "predestines" everyone, but the chain of calling, justifying etc stops if you don't hear the call. This is just my experience, but opening myself up to the possibility (not reality) of A God, but believing that I couldn't know for sure (agnosticism) was my first step. Because of this decision my life went down a different path and I eventually heard the abovementioned call.

So the argument is futile because as I said in my original post, while ever you're closed to the idea (which it seems you are) you won't ever believe it, and in my opinion, not even if it was proven scientifically, because you realise science can be wrong too.

So why do I keep participating in the argument? I guess it's just an interest thing. I enjoy learning about why people believe (or disbelieve) what they do (or don't).

 

[MoonlightSonata]

What shall we say then? Even if someone came up with "undeniable" scientific "proof" that the christian God exists, are you 100% certain that you would then believe it?

Of course I would, if it could be proven to me.

Assuming yes, would you then go ahead and live the way Jesus prescribed we should?

Well no, because the existence of a deity does not in anyway illustrate the truth of what is written in the Bible, other than a deity exists.

Belief in God doesn't get you anywhere.

The argument of existance is futile.

Hence why I find it funny that people assert so confidently that some deity exists, and then further claim to know all about its character and desires.

29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

It's not explicitly stated here but from other sections (I could find them if you like) I believe God "predestines" everyone, but the chain of calling, justifying etc stops if you don't hear the call. This is just my experience, but opening myself up to the possibility (not reality) of A God, but believing that I couldn't know for sure (agnosticism) was my first step. Because of this decision my life went down a different path and I eventually heard the abovementioned call.

I am not closed to the possibility of God. I think it is quite unlikely though, and since we have no evidence of one it makes little sense to live one's life in accordance with religious texts.

So the argument is futile because as I said in my original post, while ever you're closed to the idea (which it seems you are)

I have repeatedly said that I am agnostic. I am not closed to the idea, but the default position is not that "god exists". The onus is on theists to show god actually exists.

...you won't ever believe it, and in my opinion, not even if it was proven scientifically, because you realise science can be wrong too.

No, but science doesn't necessarily hold things to be absolutely true. It says that, based on all our observations of the world and all our knowledge, this is the best conclusion we can come to, so we should live according to this being the truth unless it can be shown otherwise.

There are certain beliefs we take as true because it is the best conclusion we can draw from the world. There is always the possibility that the sun might not come up tomorrow. But it has risen every day since the dawn of man -- it would be safe to assume it will come up tomorrow. Inductive reasoning assists us in these matters.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

The people of the modern religions are no different to the aztecs or the ancient greeks or the ancient egyptians... all these people were CERTAIN that their god(s) existed, I just think it must be a hard thing to grapple with.

edit: I just watched a penn & teller eppisode about the patriot act... their biggest thing was 'They Didn't even READ it!', clearly ignoring that no-one goes through the trouble of reading an entire bill

 

[danieljarvis]

i stopped believing in god around the same time i figured the truth about santa claus and eskimos.
coincidence much?

 

[rnitya_25]

they have nothing to do with each other, what are you on about?

the question of whether or not god exists depends upon the perception of what and who god is by each individual. i believe in god, i truly do, but just because someone doesn't believe in god, doesn's mean they're going to go to hell. each religion is different, some religions such as hinduism don't believe in hell, hindus believe in reincarnation, whereas other religions such as christianity believe in satan. its not wrong, they're just different perceptions. if you had faith in god, you'd believe that he is there and he exists. but those who don't believe in god or don;t care aren't damned for eternity, because believing in god should be a moral and ethical choice, not a compulsory belief.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

What the hell was all that crap you just said rnitya?
There is an objective truth, are you willing to conceed that? There either is a diety(s) or there isn't. Thus one group of people are wrong, and the other are right.

Your 'they're just different perceptions' argument is all great and all, but it leads everyone to nowhere fast in an objective reality.

 

[withoutaface]

i stopped believing in god around the same time i figured the truth about santa claus and eskimos.
coincidence much?

Don't talk shit about Santa, or I'll tell mummy

 

[Enlightened_One]

Just for thought:

How does one prove a miracle?

If God created the world and in doing so he began at the basics and constructed it through DNA etc, and science has found out that humans are indeed are made of DNA, how could it be proved that God created it?

Or rather, if God is all powerful and He did create the world, would he have left behind any traces of His work?

I.e. How would science find the fingerprints of God?

E.g. If you constructed an intelligent robot and a synthetic world and when you activated the robot it was not aware of you doing so and all it knew was the habitat you had built for it, then how could it find traces of you? Wouldn't everything it come across be natural to it? How could it possibly conceive of a creature that it so different, even in it's makeup (organic as compared to artificial).

Conversly, if there were a community of robots, and if you revealed to one, indirectly, that you existed and created all it knows, how could it convince another robot of this? How could it prove it?


Not exactly the most in depth hypothetical but if you think about and try to keep in mind all the ratios that would seperate us from God, if indeed He exists, such as how he has a power beyond what we can imagine. So the maker of the robot would need to have the same degree of abilities and power over the robots.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Well, you can't prove it - that's the point.

Just as I cannot prove that I am alien. Hence you won't go around believing that I am one.

 

[Wilmo]

What if you were an alien, and you knew that the other aliens were coming back to take you, and all those who believed you, "home" one day. If you knew that people would never be able to go where you are going unless you told them how to get there... Would you not tell everybody whether they believed you or not?

I cannot tell you that God exists, but I know that he does and that he is coming back. Hence it is my perogative to tell everyone I can about him in order to prepare the way. The news Jesus came to tell you is that you are NOT good enough by yourself! It is impossible for you to be as righteous as God... but God has made a way possible for you to be saved.

It is not in my job to make you believe because I cant do that, but it is in mine to tell you what I know and for that to be the catalyst for the Holy Spirit to prompt your response.


Everything i have said has not been to make you believe that your belief is wrong, because nothing I can say can change it. BUT i have said what i can because if I, and other christians, do nothing... we will have denied you the opportunity to know God.

I'm happy to explain what I can... but i can can only tell you that God has revealed himself to me and that my desire is to tell everyone who will hear me that the kingdom of God is at hand.

 

[SashatheMan]

ah

 

[withoutaface]

God has revealed himself to me

Lay off the weed.

 

[SashatheMan]

Lay off the weed.

hey leave the weed out of this. it has done no wrong. Its the LSD or magic mushrooms to blame

 

[Wilmo]

Everything is permissable... but not everything is beneficial I hardly think me speaking to you (or even making a decision) under the influence of any type of plant or chemical is beneficial

No... it is not just some feeling i get from reading a book that causes me to believe in God. It's not just wishful thinking that there must be something beyond this life that causes me to believe. What i "feel" has very little to do with it.

I believe that God has revealed himself very clearly through the person of Jesus Christ. I believe he is fully man and fully God. I believe that he died, but was raised from death three days after. Because this, he is no less capable of presenting himself as real to me as he did to the people 2000 years ago.

So yes, I have a personal relationship with the man, and inherently God, even if i don't get to see him. He is no less real to me than you, who i cant see, or my friends who I see every day. I guess the best way to explain that is that I am blind and I cant see my friend, but he speaks and he puts his hand on my shoulder and he does everything possible to let me know that he is still with me.

Have i been left all alone to believe in this person I cant see? After all how to I know that you are really who you claim to be? If you really wanted me to believe you, you would send someone who knows you intimately to assure me of who you are. And God has done EXACTLY the same thing for me.

In becoming a Christian I have recieved the Holy Spirit. This means that God is no longer an external person who can feel distant and far away! Instead, God himself has made his home in me! Every day I must die to myself so that the life of God may flow from me.

How do I know that God lives in me? Because his Spirit awakens mine to his presence. And I am so humbled by the fact that the perfect and living God has chosen to make my sinful human body his dwelling place.

My natural state is rebelling against God's will for my life and there is NO way i can change that myself. It is only possible for God to live in a perfect relationship with God. So through my life, I exhibit the life of Christ in this; I am now dead to my sin, my rebellion against God, and I am no longer it's slave.

Yes I still sin, but every day I do what it is impossible for me to humanly do. By the Spirit I put to death my sinful nature and am thus the perfect God sees me as perfect. It is not because I am better than anyone else that God chose to live in me... but because he did i now have a full and active relationship with him.

In short, through the Spirit God revealed to me that I am not good enough to save myself, but he is awesome enough to save me. He did this through the man Jesus Christ who is as real as you and my best friends, and that I now have a saving relationship with.

 

[veterandoggy]

In becoming a Christian I have recieved the Holy Spirit. This means that God is no longer an external person who can feel distant and far away! Instead, God himself has made his home in me! Every day I must die to myself so that the life of God may flow from me.

sorry, but this paragraph is tugging on my brain. "in becoming christian". does that mean that you have converted, and in doing so you have recieved the holy spirit? cos what if you convert to another religion? you would presumably feel an empty spot in your heart, but you left christianity because it wasnt the right religion, right?

and the last line is almost cracking me up, so please clarify what you mean.

 

[SashatheMan]

interesting.

 

[Wilmo]

sorry, but this paragraph is tugging on my brain. "in becoming christian". does that mean that you have converted, and in doing so you have recieved the holy spirit? cos what if you convert to another religion? you would presumably feel an empty spot in your heart, but you left christianity because it wasnt the right religion, right?

and the last line is almost cracking me up, so please clarify what you mean.

I don't quite understand sorry... are you asking me whether I had a religion other than Christianity and then changed over?

If that is the meaning... No. I was not always a Christian, but I never had another "religion". Basically, there is only two stand points you can have in relation to God. You are either right with him or you're not.

What i meant is that I was not right with God, but through the work of the Holy Spirit he showed me what Jesus has done for me, and thus made me right. So really, it is not the converting (as such) by which i receive the Spirit, but through the Spirit i am "converted" from not being in a right relationship with Him to being in a right relationship.

And what if I converted to a different religion? Well, I believe that God would revoke his Spirit from me (after all God would recieve no glory from what people see in me if i were glorifying something else). And yes that would leave me empty and it is a punishment i join with King David in praying that it will not happen.

In the old testament, Saul turned his passion from worshiping God to preventing David from taking his position as king. As punishment, God removed the Holy Spirit from him and he went insane and went out to the mountains where he ate grass! The Holy Spirit is an advisor from God and the way we can continually commune with him.

If I put myself in a position where he was taken away, such as worshiping a different God, then yes i would feel an empty spot. But the reason i would have left christianity is not because it isnt right, but because I would rather be wrong. But with God's help this will not happen.

I said nothing different in the last line to anything else... why clarify? I am convinced Jesus is not dead and because of that, I am just as capable of hanging out with him as with anybody else.

i conclude by saying that with jesus having so many relationships. He is a bisexual, player.

You can dance, you can dance,
Everybody think with your pants