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Does God exist? (3 Viewers)

do you believe in god?


  • Total voters
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Captain Hero

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emytaylor164 said:
you can take science as an explanation for things, and believe that God created it. Of course there are some things that you would not agree with but i am sure that even some athieist's would not accept some things that science claims.
Wow there is just no way of going about how incredibly ignorant and incorrect that statement is.

Science 'claims'. Since when did we bowdlerise fact to mean claim?

Also Emy, please for the love of your revelatory god READ THIS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe#English_language_usage
 

emytaylor164

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Captain Hero said:
Wow there is just no way of going about how incredibly ignorant and incorrect that statement is.

Science 'claims'. Since when did we bowdlerise fact to mean claim?

Also Emy, please for the love of your revelatory god READ THIS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe#English_language_usage
I am sure that you could find some athiests out there who do disagree with some things that science says to be true. Not every athies thinks the way that you think.
 
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xeuyrawp

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emytaylor164 said:
umm yes it can.... have you never heard of christian scientist's
Kirsten Birkett for example.
No, but neither has Wikipedia, so...

I find that most athiests just assume that christians are against science.
No, I think that if you want to debate about theism in our modern sense of debating, you've already lost because you've left your own realm of logic and entered into the logic of the modern scientist.

It's been pretty soundly shown that you have no proof of any god, and that your particular belief in god can be directly traced via archaeology, philology, and common sense to the oldest beliefs of neolithic people. There is no evidence to show that your particular religion is anything but the latest evolution of what Christian theologists once called "primitive superstitions".

Many christians who are intrested in science would struggle to understand it without there belief in God.
Then why do so many non-Christians have no trouble understanding science without their belief in a god? =/
 

emytaylor164

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PwarYuex said:
No, but neither has Wikipedia, so...



No, I think that if you want to debate about theism in our modern sense of debating, you've already lost because you've left your own realm of logic and entered into the logic of the modern scientist.

It's been pretty soundly shown that you have no proof of any god, and that your particular belief in god can be directly traced via archaeology, philology, and common sense to the oldest beliefs of neolithic people. There is no evidence to show that your particular religion is anything but the latest evolution of what Christian theologists once called "primitive superstitions".



Then why do so many non-Christians have no trouble understanding science without their belief in a god? =/
Umm just because wikipedia has not heard of something it does not mean it does not exist.
I have nothing that you would consider proof, but do you have proof that he does not exist, just because you can not touch, feel and see him it does not mean that something does not exist.

This is a little website which outlines the reasons why i believe (bear in mind i have not read the entire thing i have not got my glasses on, cos i can not find them atm and it is hard without it)
1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

existence of GodThe Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

proof of GodWater is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.5

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.6
2. Does God exist? The human brain's complexity shows a higher intelligence behind it.

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

existence of GodThe human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. A brain that deals with more than a million pieces of information every second, while evaluating its importance and allowing you to act on the most pertinent information... did it come about just by chance? Was it merely biological causes, perfectly forming the right tissue, blood flow, neurons, structure? The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people. How does one explain the human brain?
3. Does God exist? "Chance" or "natural causes" are insufficient explanations.

The alternative to God existing is that all that exists around us came about by natural cause and random chance. If someone is rolling dice, the odds of rolling a pair of sixes is one thing. But the odds of spots appearing on blank dice is something else. What Pasteur attempted to prove centuries ago, science confirms, that life cannot arise from non-life. Where did human, animal, plant life come from?

Also, natural causes are an inadequate explanation for the amount of precise information contained in human DNA. A person who discounts God is left with the conclusion that all of this came about without cause, without design, and is merely good fortune. It is intellectually wanting to observe intricate design and attribute it to luck.
4. Does God exist? To state with certainty that there is no God, a person has to ignore the passion of an enormously vast number of people who are convinced that there is a God.

This is not to say that if enough people believe something it is therefore true. Scientists, for example, have discovered new truths about the universe which overruled previous conclusions. But as science has progressed, no scientific discovery has countered the numerical likelihood of an intelligent mind being behind it all. In fact, the more science discovers about human life and the universe, the more complex and precisely designed we realize these to be. Rather than pointing away from God, evidence mounts further toward an intelligent source. But objective evidence is not all.

There is a much larger issue. Throughout history, billions of people in the world have attested to their firm, core convictions about God's existence -- arrived at from their subjective, personal relationship with God. Millions today could give detailed account of their experience with God. They would point to answered prayer and specific, amazing ways God has met their needs, and guided them through important personal decisions. They would offer, not only a description of their beliefs, but detailed reports of God's actions in their lives. Many are sure that a loving God exists and has shown himself to be faithful to them. If you are a skeptic, can you say with certainty: "I am absolutely right and they all are wrong about God"?
5. Does God exist? We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.

I was an atheist at one time. And like most atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.

proof of GodI didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.

I am not the only one who has experienced this. Malcolm Muggeridge, socialist and philosophical author, wrote, "I had a notion that somehow, besides questing, I was being pursued." C.S. Lewis said he remembered, "...night after night, feeling whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of England."

Lewis went on to write a book titled, "Surprised by Joy" as a result of knowing God. I too had no expectations other than rightfully admitting God's existence. Yet over the following several months, I became amazed by his love for me.
6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God pursuing us.

Why Jesus? Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God. Surprisingly, Jesus did. That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others. He said God exists and you're looking at him. Though he talked about his Father in heaven, it was not from the position of separation, but of very close union, unique to all humankind. Jesus said that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father, anyone who believed in him, believed in the Father.

He said, "I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."8 He claimed attributes belonging only to God: to be able to forgive people of their sin, free them from habits of sin, give people a more abundant life and give them eternal life in heaven. Unlike other teachers who focused people on their words, Jesus pointed people to himself. He did not say, "follow my words and you will find truth." He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me."9

What proof did Jesus give for claiming to be divine? He did what people can't do. Jesus performed miracles. He healed people...blind, crippled, deaf, even raised a couple of people from the dead. He had power over objects...created food out of thin air, enough to feed crowds of several thousand people. He performed miracles over nature...walked on top of a lake, commanding a raging storm to stop for some friends. People everywhere followed Jesus, because he constantly met their needs, doing the miraculous. He said if you do not want to believe what I'm telling you, you should at least believe in me based on the miracles you're seeing.10

Jesus Christ showed God to be gentle, loving, aware of our self-centeredness and shortcomings, yet deeply wanting a relationship with us. Jesus revealed that although God views us as sinners, worthy of his punishment, his love for us ruled and God came up with a different plan. God himself took on the form of man and accepted the punishment for our sin on our behalf. Sounds ludicrous? Perhaps, but many loving fathers would gladly trade places with their child in a cancer ward if they could. The Bible says that the reason we would love God is because he first loved us.

Jesus died in our place so we could be forgiven. Of all the religions known to humanity, only through Jesus will you see God reaching toward humanity, providing a way for us to have a relationship with him. Jesus proves a divine heart of love, meeting our needs, drawing us to himself. Because of Jesus' death and resurrection, he offers us a new life today. We can be forgiven, fully accepted by God and genuinely loved by God. He says, "I have loved you with an everlasting love, therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you."11 This is God, in action.

Does God exist? If you want to know, investigate Jesus Christ. We're told that "God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."12

God does not force us to believe in him, though he could. Instead, he has provided sufficient proof of his existence for us to willingly respond to him. The earth's perfect distance from the sun, the unique chemical properties of water, the human brain, DNA, the number of people who attest to knowing God, the gnawing in our hearts and minds to determine if God is there, the willingness for God to be known through Jesus Christ. If you need to know more about Jesus and reasons to believe in him, please see: Beyond Blind Faith.
If you want to begin a relationship with God now, you can.

This is your decision, no coercion here. But if you want to be forgiven by God and come into a relationship with him, you can do so right now by asking him to forgive you and come into your life. Jesus said, "Behold, I stand at the door [of your heart] and knock. He who hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him [or her]."13 If you want to do this, but aren't sure how to put it into words, this may help: "Jesus, thank you for dying for my sins. You know my life and that I need to be forgiven. I ask you to forgive me right now and come into my life. I want to know you in a real way. Come into my life now. Thank you that you wanted a relationship with me. Amen."

God views your relationship with him as permanent. Referring to all those who believe in him, Jesus Christ said of us, "I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand."14

So, does God exist? Looking at all these facts, one can conclude that a loving God does exist and can be known in an intimate, personal way. If you need more information about Jesus' claim to divinity, or about God's existence, or if you have similar important questions, please email us.
http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

Christians also find that science also increases there faith and awe of God.
 

Captain Hero

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emytaylor164 said:
I am sure that you could find some athiests out there who do disagree with some things that science says to be true. Not every athies thinks the way that you think.
No, of course, there are credulous idiots of all faiths. What I was commenting on was not that point, but the fact that you said science claims things rather than asserts analysed fact.

A perfect example to point out your argument would be the existence of people who believe in all that new age medicine bullshit. Or that new-age spirituality stuff that I'm even more skeptical of than religions because it is out and out straight-up rip-off bullshit.

It's just like I'm sure there are many bigoted racists out there that are hardened atheists and are bigoted based on some odd interpretation of biology to help structure their beliefs.
 

emytaylor164

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Captain Hero said:
No, of course, there are credulous idiots of all faiths. What I was commenting on was not that point, but the fact that you said science claims things rather than asserts analysed fact.

A perfect example to point out your argument would be the existence of people who believe in all that new age medicine bullshit. Or that new-age spirituality stuff that I'm even more skeptical of than religions because it is out and out straight-up rip-off bullshit.

It's just like I'm sure there are many bigoted racists out there that are hardened atheists and are bigoted based on some odd interpretation of biology to help structure their beliefs.
oh ok fair enough, i also meaning, things like theories, such as the big bang theory, andi am not going to get in to the whole theory debate.
 

Captain Hero

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LEts hit at this one by one.

emytaylor said:
1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.
Presupposes that life on earth is only intelligent life in the universe (statistically impossible) and that situations precursored to development, rather than development adapting to situations. How do you explain extremeophile bacterium... etc?

existence of GodThe Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.
That astonishing lack of knowledge of astronomy is mind-boggling.


And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4
does this person not understand how gravity and bodies orbiting one another work? Take a flat sheet of cloth and hold it absolutely taut. Place a ball on it. Notice that the ball does not move. Now, place another, heavier ball on the sheet near that ball and notice that the ball moves based on the indentations in the fabric. It's not the 'perfect size and distance'. It's set in a decaying orbit based on the proportions of the weights of the two bodies. Just like every other orbit.


Water &c.
Not even going to bother with this.

2. Does God exist? The human brain's complexity shows a higher intelligence behind it.

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

existence of GodThe human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. A brain that deals with more than a million pieces of information every second, while evaluating its importance and allowing you to act on the most pertinent information... did it come about just by chance? Was it merely biological causes, perfectly forming the right tissue, blood flow, neurons, structure? The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people. How does one explain the human brain?
Neurology. We've tweaked rat neurons to drive a car and we can see the development of neurons in lesser species. Look up sentience.


3. Does God exist? "Chance" or "natural causes" are insufficient explanations.

The alternative to God existing is that all that exists around us came about by natural cause and random chance. If someone is rolling dice, the odds of rolling a pair of sixes is one thing. But the odds of spots appearing on blank dice is something else. What Pasteur attempted to prove centuries ago, science confirms, that life cannot arise from non-life. Where did human, animal, plant life come from?
What do you mean life cannot arise from non-life? Life is made of proteins which come from amino acids which are trivial to create under laboratory conditions. All you need is chemicals (elements etc) and energy (electricity)

Also, natural causes are an inadequate explanation for the amount of precise information contained in human DNA. A person who discounts God is left with the conclusion that all of this came about without cause, without design, and is merely good fortune. It is intellectually wanting to observe intricate design and attribute it to luck.
Good fortune? Even then, I still don't understand how this proves the christian god at all. Existence of life is a statistical certainty.

4. Does God exist? To state with certainty that there is no God, a person has to ignore the passion of an enormously vast number of people who are convinced that there is a God.
Argument from populism! World's most sold song is elton john's candle in the wind.

This is not to say that if enough people believe something it is therefore true. Scientists, for example, have discovered new truths about the universe which overruled previous conclusions. But as science has progressed, no scientific discovery has countered the numerical likelihood of an intelligent mind being behind it all. In fact, the more science discovers about human life and the universe, the more complex and precisely designed we realize these to be. Rather than pointing away from God, evidence mounts further toward an intelligent source. But objective evidence is not all.
Wow... just... wow. What about all of the failings of nature and the redundancies of the evolutionary process, are they all created by a sophisticated designer? Our current condition points to development of traits that are not intelligently designed. We have traits because they are necessary

*insert all arguments for genetic diseases etc here*

There is a much larger issue. Throughout history, billions of people in the world have attested to their firm, core convictions about God's existence -- arrived at from their subjective, personal relationship with God. Millions today could give detailed account of their experience with God. They would point to answered prayer and specific, amazing ways God has met their needs, and guided them through important personal decisions. They would offer, not only a description of their beliefs, but detailed reports of God's actions in their lives. Many are sure that a loving God exists and has shown himself to be faithful to them. If you are a skeptic, can you say with certainty: "I am absolutely right and they all are wrong about God"?
I can categorically say that the christian god does not exist. Argument from personal revelation. To quote epicurus:

"Is He willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is impotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Whence then is evil?"
— Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion


5. Does God exist? We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.

I was an atheist at one time. And like most atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise.
Most people that claim they were 'atheist' before they were religious weren't really 'atheists' as much as they had no real information regarding religion... etc. Either way my tangent is irrelevant.

The argument and refutations don't come from a personal lack but the fact that you have a black and white moral compass and have this liberation theology thing all behind it. Your beliefs affect my life and my ability to be left alone.

Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.
I'll address this later. Gotta go to class. I've written this entire thing up in about 3 minutes so I'll tidy it up later.
 

Captain Hero

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emytaylor164 said:
oh ok fair enough, i also meaning, things like theories, such as the big bang theory, andi am not going to get in to the whole theory debate.
Yeah there are secular individuals that think the earth is flat and that the sun rotates around the earth and that germ theory is a lie.

The fact that they are suspending their disbelief in order to hold an idea in their mind that is contrary to proven fact doesn't mean they have automatic right to be heard at a table.

If a man thought he was the second coming of Christ, would you accept it without proof? Of course not.
 

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Captain Hero said:
Yeah there are secular individuals that think the earth is flat and that the sun rotates around the earth and that germ theory is a lie.

The fact that they are suspending their disbelief in order to hold an idea in their mind that is contrary to proven fact doesn't mean they have automatic right to be heard at a table.

If a man thought he was the second coming of Christ, would you accept it without proof? Of course not.
if it was the second coming of christ everyonewould know about it


Just because there is nothing that you consider proof that God exists, there is nothing that disproves it either?
 

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emytaylor164 said:
if it was the second coming of christ everyonewould know about it


Just because there is nothing that you consider proof that God exists, there is nothing that disproves it either?
just like how everyone knew about the first coming of him, right?
 

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Captain Hero said:
No, of course, there are credulous idiots of all faiths. What I was commenting on was not that point, but the fact that you said science claims things rather than asserts analysed fact.
I don't think it's bad practice to say that science merely 'claims'. One of the great strengths of science is that it shies away from absolute claims and is open to revision if the right evidence comes along. Science doesn't say 'believe X because it is a fact', but rather says 'believe X because it is the most warranted belief based on our current state of knowledge'.
 

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HalcyonSky said:
just like how everyone knew about the first coming of him, right?
the bible ( and i know you do not believe it) says that every knee will bow, everyone will see him
 

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KFunk said:
I don't think it's bad practice to say that science merely 'claims'. One of the great strengths of science is that it shies away from absolute claims and is open to revision if the right evidence comes along. Science doesn't say 'believe X because it is a fact', but rather says 'believe X because it is the most warranted belief based on our current state of knowledge'.
Claims seems to me to denigrate and be hucksterish, but you do have a point, I shall revise my ire.
 

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emytaylor164 said:
the bible ( and i know you do not believe it) says that every knee will bow, everyone will see him
I think you've missed the point of the exercise...
 
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She said like they did the first and then i said what the bible says will happen how did I miss the point?
 
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emytaylor164 said:
Umm just because wikipedia has not heard of something it does not mean it does not exist.
No, but it probably means I don't give a shit about it.
 

katie tully

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lolol
just because wikipedia has not heard of something does not mean it does not exist

lolol wtf

google unreliable sources
 

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