Which is why I feel perfectly justified in remaining Agnostic.Riviet said:The problem with this topic is that there has been no solid evidence to convincingly prove that God does or does not exist.
Which is why I feel perfectly justified in remaining Agnostic.Riviet said:The problem with this topic is that there has been no solid evidence to convincingly prove that God does or does not exist.
so as an agnostic what do you think will happen to you when you die. or do you just dont know and dont really care?volition said:Which is why I feel perfectly justified in remaining Agnostic.
I particularly like the Lucretian point of view. Before we were born, we were also 'dead.' Our non-existence before our life caused us no harm. The only harm in dying is our sadness that life has to come to an end, then most probably we'll just return to nothingness as before. Since we would cease to be aware, we wouldn't feel or know anything.erin_tonkin said:so as an agnostic what do you think will happen to you when you die. or do you just dont know and dont really care?
Very few people actually support that claim. It is generally accepted by people who actually study the Gnostic gospels that they were written 100-200 years after the biblical gospels (which were written 30-60 years after Jesus death).Ur_Inner_Child's article said:The Gnostics were the original Christians, just as they themselves claimed.
This isnt quite true either. It isn't the most popular of theories amongst scholars. Most believe that Josephus and Luke used a common text for their explainations of Jesus. Josephus didnt go into much detail as he was only extrapolating the essence of what Jewish Christians believed.Ur_Inner_Child's article said:Other bits of traditional evidence, such as references to Jesus by the Jewish historian Josephus, have been shown to be later forgeries.
This is like what i said elsewhere... it severley discredits peoples arguments when they make statements which arent true. Did Paul never mention the man Jesus? Let's look at what Paul says:Ur_Inner_Child's article said:Paul, the earliest Christian source, shows no knowledge of an historical man, only a mystical Christ.
1 Timothy 2:5-6 said:For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.
There are a couple of examples where Paul says that Jesus was the Christ which is contrary to what the article claims. When something that has evidence to the contrary is included in an expository argument, it immediately lowers my opinion of what the person is saying.Romans 5:15 said:But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
good god. i'll applaud you for your effort, but i merely wanted to find a source to back up my claim about pagan roots. i learnt about the pagan roots elsewhere, not that article, which i havent thoroughly read.Wilmo said:I know these are not definative rebuttle of the article in question... but here are some of my thoughts:
Very few people actually support that claim. It is generally accepted by people who actually study the Gnostic gospels that they were written 100-200 years after the biblical gospels (which were written 30-60 years after Jesus death).
The early christians were Jews, and the Jewish train of thought was VERY different to the Gnostics. Gnostics believe and inferior God created the world and hence why it is so crap. Jews believed that the perfect God created the world and sin made him curse his creation but that he will renew his creation and ressurect his people.
Gnostics held a deep hatred for the idea of ressurection (this world is decaying and materialistic so why would they desire to be raised from the dead). What does all that mean? Many of the Jewish christians claimed to have seen Jesus alive, and because of what they believe it would be impossible for them to say he was alive unless they were conviced he had risen from the dead.
On top of this the first christians were persecuted for what they believed. A roman emperor would not be able to persecute a "gnostic christian" because there was little to no difference between what they believed and popular Greek philosphies. It was christians who believed something radically different that they targeted.
Despite what the article claims, Gnostic christianity was a later addition to what the early christians believed. And because it was based on popular human wisdom, the church had to organise itself to prevent people from accepting it as truth. The most dangerous thing for someone to believe is not a flat out lie, but something that masquerades as truth.
This isnt quite true either. It isn't the most popular of theories amongst scholars. Most believe that Josephus and Luke used a common text for their explainations of Jesus. Josephus didnt go into much detail as he was only extrapolating the essence of what Jewish Christians believed.
Most people believe it would have been impossible for a Christian who lived at a later time to be able to write such statements affirming who Jesus was in the same voice that Josephus wrote in. Nor could they copy. Each writer would bring their own voice into the writing yet these statements ar consistant with the rest of his work.
My next quirble:
This is like what i said elsewhere... it severley discredits peoples arguments when they make statements which arent true. Did Paul never mention the man Jesus? Let's look at what Paul says:
There are a couple of examples where Paul says that Jesus was the Christ which is contrary to what the article claims. When something that has evidence to the contrary is included in an expository argument, it immediately lowers my opinion of what the person is saying.
Just out of curiosity: People, like the ones who wrote this article, use examples from the bible (and I doubt that many people have ever read it) to back up what they say. In this case, they said Paul is the earliest Christian source and he said this which proves our point (although he never said any such thing). Yet if a Christian tries to argue something from the bible, the argument is said to be invalid because the bible is an unreliable source.
Why does it work like that? If Christians cant say "Here is a verse in the bible that says what is right, and here is another bible verse that says the bible is right", Why do people not complain when the argument is reversed (i.e. using the bible to say the bible is wrong)?
Ah... right oh. Thanks for clearing that up. I can be a bit daft sometimesNot-That-Bright said:Wilmo... he never mentioned anything about jesus's life, other than the fact that he died went to hell, was resurected then went to heaven... The rest of the story of his life is not mentioned at all.
Haha... thanks.ur_inner_child said:good god. i'll applaud you for your effort, but i merely wanted to find a source to back up my claim about pagan roots. i learnt about the pagan roots elsewhere, not that article, which i havent thoroughly read.
merely the paragraph i had supplied the forum.
I understand what you are saying. And it's hard to give a good reason for this. But what I think you will find with early Christianity is that it was largely underground. A few communities of people who practiced Christianity in Jerusalem, and the Jews were pretty hostile to Christians just as they were to Jesus. That's why it stayed quiet for a little while.Not-That-Bright said:Yea the only problem is... since there's no evidence of anyone knowing most of jesus's life untill 40 years after her death is supposed to happen, I mean... think about it?
I think i need to go to sleep now. But i was wondering if you could maybe give an example of one (or more) of these people and maybe even what the church has said about them if possible. Or do you mean someone like Ur_Inner_Child's Godman? Sorry for not being able to offer more now, but i'm a bit tired (as always these days!)Not-That-Bright said:I think the thing that further complicates it is that there's a bunch of different people whom have stories just like jesus's from around the same time... the church's response to this is that satan created all the other stories to trick people, but jesus is a real one.... despite them all having almost exactly the same tales. It's more than likely that the 'jesus' tale is just a new version of all these other characters...
[COLOR="Blue"]http://files.filefront.com/SOG_doctyp/;4607060;;/fileinfo.html[/COLOR]
Did God create everything that exists? Does evil exist? Did God create evil?"
A University professor at a well known institution of higher learning challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?"
A student bravely replied, "Yes he did!"
"God created everything?" The professor asked.
"Yes sir, he certainly did," the student replied.
The professor answered, "If God created everything; then God created evil. And, since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then we can assume God is evil."
The student became quiet and did not respond to the professor's hypothetical definition.
Another student raised his hand and said, "May I ask you a question, professor?"
"Of course", replied the professor.
The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"
"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?"
The other students snickered at the young man's question.The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Everybody or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460 F) is the total absence of heat; and all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."
The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"
The professor responded, "Of course it does."
The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact, we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."
Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"
Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course, as I have already said. We see it everyday. It is in the daily examples of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.
To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist, sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat, or the darkness that comes when there is no light."
The professor sat down.
The young man's name -- Albert Einstein
yeah. but the concept is intriguingGoodSirLancelot said:That is fiction.
I'll get you an example shortly - the church has said satan used these people to trick humanity - but jesus was real.But i was wondering if you could maybe give an example of one (or more) of these people and maybe even what the church has said about them if possible.
I'll just forward you to http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.aspDid God create everything that exists? Does evil exist? Did God create evil?"
A University professor at a well known institution of higher learning challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?"
A student bravely replied, "Yes he did!"
"God created everything?" The professor asked.
"Yes sir, he certainly did," the student replied.
The professor answered, "If God created everything; then God created evil. And, since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then we can assume God is evil."
The student became quiet and did not respond to the professor's hypothetical definition.
Another student raised his hand and said, "May I ask you a question, professor?"
"Of course", replied the professor.
The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"
"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?"
The other students snickered at the young man's question.The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Everybody or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460 F) is the total absence of heat; and all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."
The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"
The professor responded, "Of course it does."
The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact, we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."
Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"
Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course, as I have already said. We see it everyday. It is in the daily examples of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.
To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist, sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat, or the darkness that comes when there is no light."
The professor sat down.
The young man's name -- Albert Einstein
absence, in the sense lack of belief, if u dont belive u r evil,Not-That-Bright said:I'll get you an example shortly - the church has said satan used these people to trick humanity - but jesus was real.
The problem with the argument is that if evil is the absense of God, then god is not everywhere. The other problem is that it seems to put forward the idea that evil is a 'side effect' of the existance of God and that he has no control over it. Unless God has to abide by certain rules?
It's a nice story.HotShot said:absence, in the sense lack of belief, if u dont belive u r evil,
well woot i'm evilHotShot said:absence, in the sense lack of belief, if u dont belive u r evil,