Does God exist? (16 Viewers)

[CyanideChrist]

my bible, yeah i'd believe that. but i think the idea of satan actually came from the bible, therefore it may have some idea of where satan came from.

Why would you believe the Bible? How do you know it's telling the truth?

In other news, this discussion is going nowhere. My point is that you do not and cannot know if your god is real, or anything about him. You cannot know if your religion is correct and all the others false. Therefore, Christianity is nothing but a guess, and is as valid as any other system of belief.

Of course, this assumes that you are not god. I don't know if you are or not, and I never will.

 

[Elite.Meat]

Why would you believe the Bible? How do you know it's telling the truth?

because, it pretty much "invented" the idea of satan

 

[Tistime345]

guys this is my first post on this discussion, but I think the place to begin properly here is to determine not which god among human rationale is true but if there is a definitive need for a God at all physically in the universe. I btw am a Christian believer in Yahweh (not from any denomination, i simply believe the bible)

 

[Elite.Meat]

Satanism is pretty kick ass and a lot closer to libertarianism than christianity. I'm sticking with Satanism.

congrats
i'm glad you can make your own decisions, now you are what, 20?

 

[nikolas]

sorry, onto that logic it has to have some sort of something making me want to believe in it.

You wanting to believe in something is irrelevant to it being actually true.

 

[nikolas]

guys this is my first post on this discussion, but I think the place to begin properly here is to determine not which god among human rationale is true but if there is a definitive need for a God at all physically in the universe. I btw am a Christian believer in Yahweh (not from any denomination, i simply believe the bible)

This while, coming from the enemy, is true.

 

[Tistime345]

Lets start with the basics, everyone who does physics know about the law which forms the basis of many physical theories, it has never been disproven, and sticking to it is the key to expansion of many theories, i.e, relativistic mass, lenz's law, etc. The law of conservation energy, it requires no probability, we know that the universe must have had a beginning, and the mere fact that there is something rather than nothing, which is only possible by the presence of something that can make something from nothing, i.e God. Further if you choose to say that this is simply not true, impossible btw, then how bout the miraculous division of universe in which there is sometihng rather than a whole lot of gamma rays, which is what should have happened lest something miraculously made matter outnumber antimatter, something that simply should not have happened.

 

[CyanideChrist]

reading back through previous pages i have a question..
why is it that any christian that comes onto here, you automatically "assume" they have been either brainwashed by pastors/parents or that they cannot make decisions on their faith by themselves?

I assumed that someone had told you about it and told you that it was correct (this someone includes the Bible, not just parents and pastors).

because, it pretty much "invented" the idea of satan

But that doesn't mean that satan actually exists. The Bible says he does, but the Bible could be lieing. Also, couldn't you say that the Bible pretty much "invented" the idea of a Christian god?

Lets start with the basics, everyone who does physics know about the law which forms the basis of many physical theories, it has never been disproven, and sticking to it is the key to expansion of many theories, i.e, relativistic mass, lenz's law, etc. The law of conservation energy, it requires no probability, we know that the universe must have had a beginning, and the mere fact that there is something rather than nothing, which is only possible by the presence of something that can make something from nothing, i.e God. Further if you choose to say that this is simply not true, impossible btw, then how bout the miraculous division of universe in which there is sometihng rather than a whole lot of gamma rays, which is what should have happened lest something miraculously made matter outnumber antimatter, something that simply should not have happened.

Why do you assume that your god created it? Why not many gods? Why does there even have to be a god? How do you know the "laws" of physics apply in all cases?

 

[Tistime345]

Look can we not go into if the bible is true or not yet, you can not prove god exists to an atheist by opening up the bible, unless you want to go into fulfilled prophecy, so don't bring it up and tell us God exists because the bible says so(though it is really the case)

 

[Zeber]

Look can we not go into if the bible is true or not yet, you can not prove god exists to an atheist by opening up the bible,

Because it is ad infinitum and circular reasoning

unless you want to go into fulfilled prophecy,

Many other texts have had fulfilled prophecies.

so don't bring it up and tell us God exists because the bible says so(though it is really the case)

confused abit by this..

 

[moll.]

so if the life expectancy was ~25 - 30 years, it would be impossible for someone to live to max. 60 years?

sure, the old testament is dodgy, i mean, there is some weird stuff in there. just the new testament seems to have a much more steady history than the old testament.

Fallacy. It's impossible to date the exact year of the birth of Jesus from the accounts given in the Bible, because there is contradictory information given. For example, it tells us that Jesus was born in the time of King Herod, but Herod died in 4 B.C.E. According to the same book, Herod also launched a systematic purging of the children born around the time of Jesus' birth in fear of the "King of the Jews" having been born, yet such an important and extraordinary event has no other mention in history.
Meanwhile, the reason Mary and Joseph were in Bethlehem was because of the Roman census order by Quirinius, Governor of Syria, but Quirinius didn't become Governor until 5 C.E. There is also no record of a census around this time, nor was it common practice or logical for the Romans to order everyone back to their home towns for such an undertaking.
Whoever wrote the history and context of Jesus' birth was an idiot who thought no-one would notice if he smudged the facts or just made stuff up.

 

[nikolas]

Lets start with the basics, everyone who does physics know about the law which forms the basis of many physical theories, it has never been disproven, and sticking to it is the key to expansion of many theories, i.e, relativistic mass, lenz's law, etc. The law of conservation energy, it requires no probability, we know that the universe must have had a beginning, and the mere fact that there is something rather than nothing, which is only possible by the presence of something that can make something from nothing, i.e God. Further if you choose to say that this is simply not true, impossible btw, then how bout the miraculous division of universe in which there is sometihng rather than a whole lot of gamma rays, which is what should have happened lest something miraculously made matter outnumber antimatter, something that simply should not have happened.

• Rebuttal: Rebuttal: First Law of Thermodynamics Claim

Claim:

The first law of thermodynamics says matter/energy cannot come from nothing. Therefore, the universe itself could not have formed naturally.


Response:

Formation of the universe from nothing need not violate conservation of energy. The gravitational potential energy of a gravitational field is a negative energy. When all the gravitational potential energy is added to all the other energy in the universe, it might sum to zero (Guth 1997, 9-12,271-276; Tryon 1973).


• Rebuttal: The First Cause Argument

Claim:

Every event has a cause. The universe itself had a beginning, so it must have had a first cause, which must have been a creator God.


Response:

1. The assumption that every event has a cause, although common in our experience, is not necessarily universal. The apparent lack of cause for some events, such as radioactive decay, suggests that there might be exceptions. There are also hypotheses, such as alternate dimensions of time or an eternally oscillating universe, that allow a universe without a first cause.

2. By definition, a cause comes before an event. If time began with the universe, "before" does not even apply to it, and it is logically impossible that the universe be caused.

3. This claim raises the question of what caused God. If, as some claim, God does not need a cause, then by the same reasoning, neither does the universe.


This was all on the 1st page.

@ the bolded bit, why can't a naturalistic explanation have caused the uneven creation of matter/anti matter, in fact i read a good guess of what could have caused this without needing to resort to "God did it".

 

[Tistime345]

Hey cyanide christ, the first two parts of your response are null anyway because i told you were not here to argue whose god is true anyway. But the entire physics, not to mention chemical, framework relies upon a few laws of physics that have never been disproven, specifically the law of conservation of energy. We're not talking about the laws of electromagnetism that you can just say, maybe they dont apply, because they talk about movement, momentum, stuff that ca happen in different ways, but this law is much more fundamental, think about it logically, can something come from nothing. And I see you forgot to address the second part of my repsonse, why is there matter rather than gamma rays everywhere, I guess you'll tell me that it just turned out that way, even though theoretical physics today relies upon and has proven the existence of antiparticles that should have been formed in equality with matter shortly after the big bang, yet it was not. Sorry did the laws of physics make exceptions again here to cater for your beliefs, damn mate atheists must be lucky

 

[Tistime345]

First Zeber i was actually helping you guys out by telling Christians not to mention the bible as proof, though to me it is, sorry your getting overloaded here mate.

Now to nikolas, man you really do suck something awful at physics, radiocative decay occurs because of inbalance in the nucleus cause by too much protons electromagnetic repulsion overcoming the combined storng nuclear and gravitationa forces; and gravitational potential energy is negative merely by defintion, that zero is placed and infinite distance away, it does not mean that there is necessarily a negative amount of energy present, how can you have real negative energy?

 

[moll.]

reading back through previous pages i have a question..
why is it that any christian that comes onto here, you automatically "assume" they have been either brainwashed by pastors/parents or that they cannot make decisions on their faith by themselves?

Because we wholeheartedly refuse to believe that someone would willingly embrace such an obviously and blatantly flawed belief system of their own free will. Also, we are the products of our upbringing, and the people who rebel against their parents and completely escape their family traditions is the exception, rather than the rule.

 

[Tistime345]

And continuing, i'm assuming that your talking about the molecular branes theory, so what your saying is that matter spontaneosuly formed from the zero point energy, (the energy in a vacuum), assuming that did happen, then the energy must have been there in the first place, and to have been there, something can not come from nothing, it must have been created first. Im pretty sure there are no theories, whos saying they're true anyway, have they been proven or is te burden of proof all upon us, that nothing could ever conceivably give something.

 

[nikolas]

First Zeber i was actually helping you guys out by telling Christians not to mention the bible as proof, though to me it is, sorry your getting overloaded here mate.

Now to nikolas, man you really do suck something awful at physics, radiocative decay occurs because of imbalance in the nucleus cause by too much protons electromagnetic repulsion overcoming the combined storng nuclear and gravitationa forces; and gravitational potential energy is negative merely by defintion, that zero is placed and infinite distance away, it does not mean that there is necessarily a negative amount of energy present, how can you have real negative energy?

1st

That was just an example it used. The point is still valid.

2nd

The same way equal forces in opposite vectors sum 0.

You still have yet to explain to me why you think Goddidit, while completely ruling out naturalistic explanations.

 

[CyanideChrist]

Hey cyanide christ, the first two parts of your response are null anyway because i told you were not here to argue whose god is true anyway.

I wasn't talking to you, you arrogant fuck. I don't give a shit if you're not arguing whose god is correct, because I am. Oh wait, you ARE arguing that your god is correct, you hypocritical cunt. You said

we know that the universe must have had a beginning, and the mere fact that there is something rather than nothing, which is only possible by the presence of something that can make something from nothing, i.e God.

Here, you are arguing for the existence of your god. Shut the fuck up.

But the entire physics, not to mention chemical, framework relies upon a few laws of physics that have never been disproven, specifically the law of conservation of energy. We're not talking about the laws of electromagnetism that you can just say, maybe they dont apply, because they talk about movement, momentum, stuff that ca happen in different ways, but this law is much more fundamental, think about it logically, can something come from nothing. And I see you forgot to address the second part of my repsonse, why is there matter rather than gamma rays everywhere, I guess you'll tell me that it just turned out that way, even though theoretical physics today relies upon and has proven the existence of antiparticles that should have been formed in equality with matter shortly after the big bang, yet it was not. Sorry did the laws of physics make exceptions again here to cater for your beliefs, damn mate atheists must be lucky

How is this relevant to god?

 

[Tistime345]

I really have to know this, why does it seem that atheists are so willing to throw away all scientific rational when it comes to arguing for atheism; but love to use the very same things that the had refuted when they come to defend atheism, i.e the laws of science.

And continuing Nikolas

3. This claim raises the question of what caused God. If, as some claim, God does not need a cause, then by the same reasoning, neither does the universe.

I admit I cant fathom what caused God, because i dont believe he was caused, but who says the universe couldn't have been caused, if you want to talk about theories, did you know that a new one states that time is simply an illusion, that it does not exist and just is a way for our mind to understand the gradual increase of entropy in the universe; so in reality using that reasoning, the universe does not need a time factor. hey it seems okay for you guys to use unproved theories as seemingly convincing proof, so I will to.

Using another chain of reasoning, what if the time of creation was time t=0, then theres no need to say that the for cause to happen before effect the universe could not conceivably be created. btw cause need not occur before effect, have a look at quantum mechanics

 

[Tistime345]

your callin me an arrogant cunt you son of a bitch, when i say god in this discussion im talking about the concept of a god, if i wanted to say my god i would have used His name, im not Catholic. And for the second part your just showing to be a stupid arrogant fuk yourself, you should have read my second post, and maybe seen that this would have been more applicable to nikolas not you, cause your arguments are irrational to me, im not arguing about whose god is true its about the existence of a god.