Does God exist? (20 Viewers)

[dan964]

I think I looked at religion objectively before I choose which one I thought was the right one. Have you seen the 12 proofs I have posted it's pretty lengthy but it's good. I'm Muslim btw if you were wondering. By the way the photo you posted God can do anything within his nature. (Like he cannot do something which reduces his omnipotence). Judging from my belief where the Quran is God's eternal word he should be able to say hi ... But why would he? Also you can't force God to do anything he acts based on His own Will.

You might need to link the 12 proofs again. at least the post where they are located.
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In response not to DrSoccerball, but the person before...
I think that God has said hi (as DrSoccerball notes for Islam, this in the Quran); for Christians this is in the Bible, but more that; God himself became a man (now that is constantly argued between Islam/Christianity whether it is possible or not but that is a separate issue)...

So you would find that God is most certainly not a deist if he exists, he certainly makes himself known.
The second thing I will note; is God is a being that is more complex than us (unitarian) beings.

In response to your meme; one can ask the fallacious question, can God make a burrito so hot that he cannot touch it. I would argue that such question is nonsense; like asking is a square, circle? But a good book I recommend is "If I were God, I'd make myself clearer" by John Dickson...

Anyway...

 

[braintic]

But it doesn't justify the actions as moral. With the bold, it is disputed, whether that was a reason given after the that to justify actions.

I'm glad you agree - the actions of the christian USA in invading other countries on the pretext of defending themselves is highly immoral.

Regarding the burrito question - you are simply drawing the line between sense and nonsense in a place to suit your belief. For us, the nonsense begins way before even contemplating the creation of that burrito.

 

[Drsoccerball]

In most countries, you would find that it is not Muslims being oppressed. And certainly not in the west.
What you find is people using the name of Islam in countries like Pakistan to oppress other religious groups, particular minorities. Same happens in India; with Hinduism. Same happens in CAR with a "Christian" Anti-Balaka.

I was talking about the companions of the prophet(pbuh) but whatever...

But it doesn't justify the actions as moral. With the bold, it is disputed, whether that was a reason given after the that to justify actions.

No additional comment needed.

Keep leaving in your imaginary world buddy...

 

[Drsoccerball]

You might need to link the 12 proofs again. at least the post where they are located.
===
In response not to DrSoccerball, but the person before...
I think that God has said hi (as DrSoccerball notes for Islam, this in the Quran); for Christians this is in the Bible, but more that; God himself became a man (now that is constantly argued between Islam/Christianity whether it is possible or not but that is a separate issue)...

So you would find that God is most certainly not a deist if he exists, he certainly makes himself known.
The second thing I will note; is God is a being that is more complex than us (unitarian) beings.

In response to your meme; one can ask the fallacious question, can God make a burrito so hot that he cannot touch it. I would argue that such question is nonsense; like asking is a square, circle? But a good book I recommend is "If I were God, I'd make myself clearer" by John Dickson...

Anyway...

They also say that "Can god make a mass so large he cannot lift it?" It's known as the omnipotence paradox. Trying to imply if he can't make such a big mass then He isn't omnipotent and if he can that means he can't lift it and therefore He's not omnipotent. But there's things with infinite mass or close and He plays around with them like marbles.

 

[dan964]

From taking SOR:

(A few references taken out of Cambridge Studies of Religion, due to my memories being cloudy on the topic)

The negative connotations of the word "Jihad" in Muslim culture (or, depending on how you perceive it, "Muslim" culture) can be defined by first acknowledging a split in two types of Jihad. We refer to them as the Greater Jihad, and the Lesser Jihad.

Note, that the term Jihad appears as a supposed 6th pillar of faith. Core to every Muslim's belief, however, are 5. We shall not discuss them here for now.

In very broad terms, the Greater Jihad focuses on adding positives to within their own Muslim life. One may say, it is an intention to live their lives to the best of their ability. This may include Qu'ran study, working for social justice and simple acts such as forgiveness.

The Lesser Jihad, on the other hand, refers more to ridding the world of evil. Whilst it may seem natural to state that a devout Muslim (note, the religion is INTENDED to be PEACEFUL) would want to confront the evil in the world, this is the main thing relevant to misjudgement of acts and thus, the scars placed on the word.

As demonstrated in certain 'Muslim' parties (note: the specific group I talk about are not true Muslims in my eyes), the definition of Lesser Jihad becomes seemingly allowing for the execution of violence and warfare. Effectively, this assumes that killing is morally just, if it is with the intention to eliminate evil.

(One may question, then, how these certain parties are viewing "evil" in their eyes? Because when Muslims are tagged with the word "jihadist" in contemporary society, it's now referred to the groups that seek to kill for their own reasons. The advent of terrorism in 9-11 does indeed reflect the deal with Bin-Laden's actions - there is a story behind his ways.)

Just like words such as "gay" have come to refer to homosexuality, "jihad" has now come to refer to a specific bunch, who in my opinion, taint the Muslim community with actions they normally forbid, due to their own misjudged view of the world.

I understand the difference. I wouldn't dispute that certainly in western Islam there is a difference mostly...
I also wouldn't dispute that most Muslims are moderate at least in the west. Most people wouldn't go to the effort of disputing that (maybe except the SylviaB types). Most people in the West (well most is an overstatement) see Islam in the West, as moderate and mostly peaceful (especially the social progressives).

But there still is an issue is there exists not isolated groups like IS but a large collection of Islamic groups with that understanding or even those that don't have a name...
Groups like... (these are just the ones I found the names of easily)...

Islamic State - Iraq/Syria
Al-Qaeda - Iraq
Taliban - Afghanistan
al-Nusra Front - Syria (affiliate with Al Qaeda)
Hezbollah - Syria/Lebanon
al-Shabaab - Somalia/Kenya
Boko Haram - Northern Nigeria/Niger/Cameroon/Chad
MRC - Kenya (linked with Al-Shaabaab)
Uamsho - Tanzania
Sekea - CAR
(CAR is one of the few where a violent "Christian" extremist resistance called the Anti-Balaka has fought back)

These are the ones I was able to find; this is not including the many groups where I haven't found the name that exist in many other countries including Pakistan, Mali, Algeria etc. (Do not get me started on places where Islam as the national religion is used in way that persecutes religious minorities especially "apostate" Muslims.)

===
Aside: There are 1.6 billion muslims. Most estimates of Islamic expression put it in terms that is a population that exceed at least 220 million which is 10 times the population of Australia. (The actual figure is significantly higher, because 220 million is 13.75% which is less a really generous underestimation for the sake of the Muslims on this thread; the actual data suggests a figure that is probably up to 4 times larger; most data suggests 20%; some data suggests/trends suggest up to 50%)

 

[StudiousStudent]

How can you believe that angels exist when God doesn't? Angels are like messengers and servant's of a king. In order to preserve the king's majesty they act as a veil.

I can be sure because I've seen them (whereas I haven't seen God). When I was a baby they would fly around my bedroom and make me laugh (I was a sick baby) and years later my mum said she could never settle me because I'd be laughing and pointing at the walls. I clearly remember that.

When I was 3-4 years old a lady would come and visit me of a night, she'd just stand in the corner of my room and smile. When I described what she looked like my mum and grandma nearly had a heart attack because I described my great grandmother who I never met.
And they showed me a photo of her after I told them and it WAS her. And that photo they showed me had white wings appear in it after that (black and white photo) that weren't there before.

She stopped visiting after my tumour was removed and I was healthy. I haven't seen any since that day but I know they're still around me.

I see messages with significant meanings between me and deceased people all the time.

I was almost killed in a car that was spinning out of control and it stopped centimetres in front of a telegraph pole.

I watched my 6'4 fit as f biological father go to assault my mum and he stopped dead in his tracks and he was looking behind her with his jaw open, and he just walked away but he'd take a few steps and turn back.. Take a few more and turn back.. Like he was in disbelief. My mum said she felt strangely calm that day and felt an arm around her.

Tbh I don't care if I sound nuts because it happened - and I believe - even though I'm of no religion.

 

[Drsoccerball]

I understand the difference. I wouldn't dispute that certainly in western Islam there is a difference mostly...
I also wouldn't dispute that most Muslims are moderate at least in the west. Most people wouldn't go to the effort of disputing that (maybe except the SylviaB types).

But there still is an issue is there exists not isolated groups like IS but a large collection of Islamic groups with that understanding or even those that don't have a name...
Groups like... (these are just the ones I found the names of easily)...

Islamic State - Iraq/Syria
Al-Qaeda - Iraq
Taliban - Afghanistan
al-Nusra Front - Syria (affiliate with Al Qaeda)
Hezbollah - Syria/Lebanon
al-Shabaab - Somalia/Kenya
Boko Haram - Northern Nigeria/Niger/Cameroon/Chad
MRC - Kenya (linked with Al-Shaabaab)
Uamsho - Tanzania
Sekea - CAR
(CAR is one of the few where a violent "Christian" extremist resistance called the Anti-Balaka has fought back)

These are the ones I was able to find; this is not including the many groups where I haven't found the name that exist in many other countries including Pakistan, Mali, Algeria etc. (Do not get me started on places where Islam as the national religion is used in way that moderates would feel violate Surah 2:256)

===
Aside: There are 1.6 billion muslims. Most estimates of Islamic expression put it in terms that is a population that exceed at least 220 million which is 10 times the population of Australia. (The actual figure is significantly higher, because 220 million is 13.75% which is less a really generous underestimation for the sake of the Muslims on this thread; the actual data suggests a figure that is probably up to 4 times larger; most data suggests 20%; some data suggests/trends suggest up to 50%)

Well why are you blaming the religion for their misinterpretation ?

 

[Drsoccerball]

I can be sure because I've seen them (whereas I haven't seen God). When I was a baby they would fly around my bedroom and make me laugh (I was a sick baby) and years later my mum said she could never settle me because I'd be laughing and pointing at the walls. I clearly remember that.

When I was 3-4 years old a lady would come and visit me of a night, she'd just stand in the corner of my room and smile. When I described what she looked like my mum and grandma nearly had a heart attack because I described my great grandmother who I never met.
And they showed me a photo of her after I told them and it WAS her. And that photo they showed me had white wings appear in it after that (black and white photo) that weren't there before.

She stopped visiting after my tumour was removed and I was healthy. I haven't seen any since that day but I know they're still around me.

I see messages with significant meanings between me and deceased people all the time.

I was almost killed in a car that was spinning out of control and it stopped centimetres in front of a telegraph pole.

I watched my 6'4 fit as f biological father go to assault my mum and he stopped dead in his tracks and he was looking behind her with his jaw open, and he just walked away but he'd take a few steps and turn back.. Take a few more and turn back.. Like he was in disbelief. My mum said she felt strangely calm that day and felt an arm around her.

Tbh I don't care if I sound nuts because it happened - and I believe - even though I'm of no religion.

Have you heard of Jins before ?

 

[braintic]

But there's things with infinite mass or close and He plays around with them like marbles.

Photo please.

 

[Drsoccerball]

Photo please.

Singularity, black holes, all the universe etc...

 

[braintic]

Singularity, black holes, all the universe etc...

Still waiting for the photo showing god playing with those items.

 

[Drsoccerball]

Still waiting for the photo showing god playing with those items.

Well this depends on if you first believe in a God... Regardless of what I say since you don't believe in a God you won't believe me...

 

[braintic]

Well this depends on if you first believe in a God... Regardless of what I say since you don't believe in a God you won't believe me...

That's right ..... a circular argument is required.

 

[Drsoccerball]

That's right ..... a circular argument is required.

Yes of course because if you don't believe in a God in the first place how am I going to prove to you He is powerful ?

 

[StudiousStudent]

Have you heard of Jins before ?

As in Jins the glasses?

Don't be a tool.

 

[Drsoccerball]

As in Jins the glasses?

Don't be a tool.

No ahahah I'm not trying to insult you but rather support you. Islamic term Jin.

 

[StudiousStudent]

No ahahah I'm not trying to insult you but rather support you. Islamic term Jin.

I've never heard of that then

 

[dan964]

Well why are you blaming the religion for their misinterpretation ?

Basically you cannot claim that Islam is a religion of peace; when a good slice of its adherents are anything but. Now you can claim that is a misinterpretation and all that. But where is your basis. They seem themselves as Islamic groups, albeit terrorists who are doing the will of Allah.

It is still an issue that remains unresolved. And like I said these are just the extreme cases that have names; lets not get started on Sharia law and other topics.

re: page #712... If you take issues with my sources, then you would note I have looked at how Islamic sources reply, and there is bias. Of course there would be bias. You cannot call "hate" for people who genuinely question and critique Islam...

It is a cop out to say it is all straw-mans.

 

[dan964]

Still waiting for the photo showing god playing with those items.

1. Why? God would not necessarily fit on such a photo.
2. I think he was just using a figure of speech. Phrases like the "hand of God" for instance, aren't necessarily literal terms describing a literal hand.

 

[braintic]

Yes of course because if you don't believe in a God in the first place how am I going to prove to you He is powerful ?

And if such an all-powerful being refuses to illustrate its power, or even its existence, how do I begin to believe in it?

I believe .... I believe .... I believe .... I believe .... I believe .... I believe .... ah - there it is ...... now give me my 72 virgins.