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Does God exist? (15 Viewers)

do you believe in god?


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KFunk

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sufyan said:
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And KFunk your gonna have to wait a while...ive answered enough silly questions for one day.
Meh, I can wait. Here's a more concise presentation:

(1) Would you class propositions of the following form 'The infinite has property X' as infinite or finite in nature?

(2) What do you mean by 'dependance' and why do you think that all which we perceive can be classed as 'dependant'?

(3) Why must that which is unlimited/infinite be a 'being'? Could it not be some kind of universal force/energy/law? (to speak in vague terms).
 

farahnaz

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ofcourse god does exist he is the creator of everything life can't just be a coincidence
 

lengy

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How is life even a coincidence? Coincidence how? The entire bible fairytale is a coincidence.
 

Not-That-Bright

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ofcourse god does exist he is the creator of everything life can't just be a coincidence
What was the likelyhood that you'd just so happen to be born in this century? There's unbelievable odds against even that, let alone everything that's happened to you... are you going to tell me none of that's a coincidence either?
 

Not-That-Bright

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It's fun to state our opinions, but you know, since other people exist and have different ideas to us, it tends to be pretty important to back those ideas up with some sort of explanation/evidence.
 

farahnaz

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Well for a start to compare the Creator to creation makes no sense because Creator is not bound by the laws that dictate creation.

To make that comparison is to assume that the Creator was created, which too is illogical.
 

Not-That-Bright

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Well for a start to compare the Creator to creation makes no sense because Creator is not bound by the laws that dictate creation.
What? I wasn't even doing that, I was merely pointing out that it's amazingly unlikely that we would just so happen to exist in the time that we do. How much do you feel fate guides your life will depend on how you'd properly answer my question.

Anyway, to respond to what you just said:

Well for a start to compare the Creator to creation makes no sense because Creator is not bound by the laws that dictate creation.
First there are two huge assumptions here:
1) There is a creator.
2) Our universe was 'created' by some being.

Now even if we accept these, there's still more problems:

1) What way do we have to analyse this hypothetical creator than by the means given to us as creations?

2) If the creator is not bound by any laws then how can you even begin to know of his existance? I mean you're saying the creator exists, so obviously he at the very least abides by that rule? The only way for something to have no rules that I can concieve is something that doesn't exist, but then I guess you could even argue that non-existance is its rule...

To make that comparison is to assume that the Creator was created, which too is illogical.
I know, could I get any more illogical? To claim that a creator created the universe is on par with the claim that magical pixies make us fall in love, if you think it's different I'd like to hear how. It's illogical in my book, but I can definately understand why people have so much hope...
 
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KFunk

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farahnaz said:
ofcourse god does exist he is the creator of everything life can't just be a coincidence
Thus far science seems to be doing a good job of showing how parts of our lives could be just that - a coincidence. I have a couple questions for you:

(1) On what grounds are you able to claim that 'life can't just be a coincidence'? (especially given that science has suggested ways in which it could be).

(2) Similar to the question I posed aboved to sufyan: Suppose that it is necessary that there was some kind of original force of creation. Why is it then the case that this creative force must be (/have been) some kind of 'being'?

EDIT: Also, taking your view of what appears as coincidence, would it not seem a big coincidence for a 'creator' (who is a being) to exist in the first place? Such a coincidence would seem just as great, if not greater, than the one you originally put forth. How do we then account for this new 'coincidence'? ... with another creator?
 
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sufyan

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KFunk said:
Meh, I can wait. Here's a more concise presentation:

(1) Would you class propositions of the following form 'The infinite has property X' as infinite or finite in nature?

(2) What do you mean by 'dependance' and why do you think that all which we perceive can be classed as 'dependant'?

(3) Why must that which is unlimited/infinite be a 'being'? Could it not be some kind of universal force/energy/law? (to speak in vague terms).
(1) Why are we describing the nature of propositions?

(2) I thought that was pretty simple. The state of relying on or needing someone or something for aid, support, or the like. Etc...

(3) It doesnt have to be a being. It is something/someone which we normally refer to as a 'being'
 

KFunk

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sufyan said:
(1) Why are we describing the nature of propositions?

(2) I thought that was pretty simple. The state of relying on or needing someone or something for aid, support, or the like. Etc...

(3) It doesnt have to be a being. It is something/someone which we normally refer to as a 'being'

(1) We are describing the nature of propositions because you are making sweeping statements about that which is infinite, while at the same time saying that 'we can only understand that which is finite'. One way of coming to understand something, say 'object X', is to determine the truth/falsity of propositions concerning object X. If I can say that 'X is used by humans to make food ' then to my mind it is reasonable to say that I then have some understanding of X, of what X is.

Why is this relevant? It is relevant because you are making statements about the infinite whilst saying that we cannot understand it. It would seem to me that to be able to lay claim to the knowledge that 'humans are incapable of understanding the infinite' is to understand some aspect of the infinite, making the claim self-defeating.

- Do you have a counter-argument to pose against mine? Alternatively, do you have some alternative line of reasoning which would deny us access to propositions concerning the infinite (whilst keeping yours safe of course)?


(2) Thanks for clarifying your meaning of dependance somewhat. The latter half of my question still stands of course - how do you justify your claim that everything we can percieve is dependant?


(3) So does that mean that 'god', as conceived by you, doesn't have to possess any human-like qualities (e.g. intelligence, emotions, judgement)?
 

shaaali

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just out of curiosity....

"could God create a stone so large he couldnt lift it?"
 

KFunk

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shaaali said:
just out of curiosity....

"could God create a stone so large he couldnt lift it?"
To say either that god could, or could not, create such a rock generates contradiction if stated in conjunction with the assumption that god is absolutely omnipotent. What this suggest (to me) is that if conceptions of god are to retain consistency then they should modify what is meant by omnipotence so as to avoid contradiction --> omnipotence could be cosntructed so as to exclude actions which generate logical contradiction e.g. denying god the ability to make 1 + 1 = 3 or to make rocks which are green and not green etc.
 

aussiechica7

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I don't think a God would need a Creator. Just because things in the natural, tangible world have a beginning does not mean the One who created them needs to have a beginning. As far as Christians go, the Bible describes God as "the beginning and the end" which could mean that beginning and end are irrelevant to Him. He created time, space and matter, therefore He is not subject to any of it unless He chooses to restrict Himself to it. (An example of that restriction would be the idea of Jesus- God in the form of man).

Shaaali- I've heard people argue that God only knows things that are possible to know. E.g. God knows how many hairs are on your head but He doesn't know what the square root of a banana is because that's nonsense, bananas don't have square roots. He knows the chemical composition of spaghetti but He doesn't know the birthday of the Flying Spaghetti Monster because (let's assume for argument's sake) the FSM doesn't actually exist. So He knows things that are knowable. That same logic could be extended to Omnipotency. Theoretically God can do anything that is possible. He can create a really big stone, but technically "a stone so large He couldn't lift it" could not actually exist (regardless of its origin) therefore He could not make it.

Does that make sense?

I have not read all 278 pages of this argument- I tend to stay away from online arguments about God because after 1000s of years of arguing man is no closer to conclusively proving whether or not God exists (and in what form) so I doubt its going to happen on an internet forum.

One thing we must realise is that God can not necessarily be proven or disproven in a science lab. We can hail the glory of science but it lacks the capacity to prove or disprove God. So let me take two rather simplistic notions: either God exists or God does not. If God exists, since science cannot prove it, it is something that must be taken on faith. If God doesn't not exist, since science cannot prove it, it is something that must be taken on faith. I am weary of people who say they can prove/disprove God's existence but I am not weary of people who say "on the basis of my philosophical view on life, weighing up everything I see, and choosing to take into account my personal experiences, I choose to believe in the existance/nonexistance of God."

This does not mean faith is something less than science, something wishy washy people just want to believe for no good reason. Many people have come to faith decisions after agonising over it for years (not just emotionally agonising, but studying history, archeology, philosophy, etc.). Also, as great as science is, we have to realise its limits. For one thing, our scientific beliefs tend to change of the years as we find more evidence for or against things. We should hold on to scientific claims tentatively, assuming that they are "true" until we can find sufficient reason to believe otherwise. But in a sense, even in this, we are operating in a low-level of faith- choosing to accept that something is true, even though it might not be, and we cannot conclusively prove it one way or the other.

The above are my personal beliefs. They may be true or false but that's how I see things.
 
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Helenoftroy

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well, God relies on faith rather than proof
If something existed to prove God exists would he go oh fuck, dissapear, hence disproving his existance and therefore having people rely on faith that he exists, therefore proving he exists?
Of course, what is proof?
is anything solid or real? are the scientific ideas that we are presented with actually correct or are they lies and fabrications? reality depends on the normal of society.
 

lengy

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I don't think a God would need a Creator. Just because things in the natural, tangible world have a beginning does not mean the One who created them needs to have a beginning.
Why then do we need a 'creator'? If God doesn't need a creator ( actually people created his existence by continuing to believe in him ) why do people need a creator?
 

ur_inner_child

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well, God relies on faith rather than proof
If something existed to prove God exists would he go oh fuck, dissapear, hence disproving his existance and therefore having people rely on faith that he exists, therefore proving he exists?
Of course, what is proof?
is anything solid or real? are the scientific ideas that we are presented with actually correct or are they lies and fabrications? reality depends on the normal of society.
I'm not sure if you're thinking your questions through, particularly the last two.
 

KFunk

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Aussiechica - does the above mean that you take an agnostic stance on the question of god's existence?
 

HotShot

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lengy said:
Why then do we need a 'creator'? If God doesn't need a creator ( actually people created his existence by continuing to believe in him ) why do people need a creator?
We need God because we have beliefs. God doesnt have any beliefs and hence doesnt need a creator.

If God exists? nothing changes, If he doesnt exist? Nothing changes. The fact that both outcomes have no effect- means it is pointless arguing over whether he exists or not.

But.. since that is what we are doing and we have time to kill before we meet GOD,

Suppose, That god existed- how can you prove to someone that he exists in such a way that it believable to a person in manner say how we outline how the internet works?
 

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