Does God exist? (3 Viewers)

[katie_tully]

hahaha oh my god, i forgot this.

the other day i was flipping through mags in the waiting room at work
they were all these hardcore christian mags coz my ex boss is a die hard christian
anyway, one letter i found extremely funny, especially if you've ever seen cheaper by the dozen 2
"I went to see Cheaper by the Dozen 2 at the cinema the other day. It was rated G and I like good family movies. Nobody warned me of the explosions and violence. Some days later I had a nightmare where I was driving on the footpath, running down pedestrians and blowing things up. I attribute this to the movie. There was no necessity for its violence'.

And then there was the article about how evil Harry Potter is, and how the Bible clearly states that sorcery is wrong and any Christians who read Harry Potter are going against the word of God.

Don't get me started on the articles about marriage, abortion and homosexuality.

Honestly guys, is there such a thing as free thought in Christianity?

 

[Enteebee]

I reckon christian magazine's would be good for trolling.

 

[iamsickofyear12]

Can there be morality without religion?

Morality has nothing to do with religion.

 

[nathan71088]

She gave a reasoned response and you seem to have provided no retort to it... to restate the point: A species which looks after each other is more likely to survive/prosper than one which kills each other, therefore those with genes which have a predesposition towards such empathy will be more likely to survive...

Tell me which part of that you disagree with.

Quoting her again:

I would say that the idea that "murder is wrong" was the simplest form of empathy possible, and a value that we had to hold in order to survive. It could be from many reasons; we need to survive as a group of numbers, we are an incredibly social species, and death was something quite real, and probably common.

You don't need religion to tell you that murder is wrong. Simple but logical thought could tell us this.

I understand the point to be: Animals that look after each other are more likely to survive/prosper than animals which kill each other. Under this understanding "You don't need religion to tell you that murder is wrong".

Considering the topic of this post I understood her to be "refuting" religion and therefore God. So I asked, since she said morals could come about without religion but through logic, the question: Can morality exist without religion? Not answering that question but, if morals are not independant of religion then FOR HUMANS, obviously religion is a valid premise which gives support to the notion of God. That last point is kinda farfetched but I wasn't going to discuss that here.

Lastly, a point: when one talks about surviving by not murdering, you cannot talk about animals and humans together. According to the post, animals that do not murder each other have a greater chance of survival. This is not not-murdering for moral purposes, this is for survival.

Does that explain it?

 

[katie_tully]

Murder and self preservation come into play during self defense. You can have the strongest morals on earth and I still bet if your life is challenged you will defend it.

 

[cheesman]

EDIT:
Kate Tully said: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Murder and self preservation come into play during self defense. You can have the strongest morals on earth and I still bet if your life is challenged you will defend it."
__________________



ask the 45 million christians killed for their beliefs in the 20th century, people who refused to defend themselves just as christ did

 

[seano77]

You can't live out Atheism/Agnosticism. Everyday we make moral and ethical decisions. Athiest's can't say that it is absolutely wrong to murder or rape someone. Why? Because in their view everything is relative. Everything is only for the good of the human race, evolutionary advantage etc. Sure, you might say that in your opinion it is wrong to murder someone. But does that mean it is wrong for someone else when they are murdering your sister? If so, why? What makes you think you can force your opinion of morality onto someone else? Except if there is a moral law, given by a moral law giver.. sounds a lot like the God of the Bible.

And is it a coincidence that so many countries have laws against murder and rape? Oh wait, I get it, we don't murder because its not good for the human race. BUT, what about disabled people? Why is it wrong to murder them? They are surely harmful to the future of the human generation. No?

With or without religion, whether the Nazi's won the war or not, whether its for the good of the human race or not, I am convinced to the root of my being that murder is absolutely wrong. Its called a conscience. And its from God.

I would like to go farther and propose why Athiests/Agnostics intentionally blind themselves from the truth of Christ:

-If you are to accept Christ's teaching's and the worldview of Christianity, you must give up the sin that you love so much. (Sex, Getting drunk, cheating in exams, lieing etc.)

-To be truly saved we must humble our pride and accept that God is in control of this world and is a higher being, to some, this isn't convenient.

-It is hard to step out of your comfort zone and persevere through the persecution.


P.S. Just because there are crazy Christian magazines out there does not mean God doesn't exist.

 

[iamsickofyear12]

I would like to go farther and propose why Athiests/Agnostics intentionally blind themselves from the truth of Christ:

-If you are to accept Christ's teaching's and the worldview of Christianity, you must give up the sin that you love so much. (Sex, Getting drunk, cheating in exams, lieing etc.)

-To be truly saved we must humble our pride and accept that God is in control of this world and is a higher being, to some, this isn't convenient.

-It is hard to step out of your comfort zone and persevere through the persecution.

"Truth: a fact that has been verified"

So I will accept your proposal as soon as you provide evidence of this "Christ" that you speak of.

 

[KFunk]

You can't live out Atheism/Agnosticism. Everyday we make moral and ethical decisions. Athiest's can't say that it is absolutely wrong to murder or rape someone. Why? Because in their view everything is relative. Everything is only for the good of the human race, evolutionary advantage etc. Sure, you might say that in your opinion it is wrong to murder someone. But does that mean it is wrong for someone else when they are murdering your sister? If so, why? What makes you think you can force your opinion of morality onto someone else? Except if there is a moral law, given by a moral law giver.. sounds a lot like the God of the Bible.

I understand your personal need for objective 'right' and 'wrong' and the moral weight such objectivity gives to our actions in the world. However, the fact that you desire that there exist divine law from which this objectivity might be derived does not entail that such a law exists. Wishing that reality be a certain way does not make it so (in any objective sense).

Also, importantly, god is not required for there to be common moral beliefs across cultures (e.g. murder is wrong). Approaches in evolutionary psychology mentioned above in this thread provide analyses which show that, on appropriate models, one would in fact expect altruistic behavior to emerge. I am fairly doubtful of the notion that similar methods would predict the emergence of 'invalid-killing'.

In any case, there is no objective relativist ethic to speak of (by definition). Anyone who says otherwise is trying to have their cake and eat it too. It is simply false to say that atheistic morality revolves around evolutionary advantage. I believe that murder is wrong just as you do - I simply also hold that this belief is subjective and largely determined by my upbringing and emotional responses to certain situations.

In short: the existence of god may be required for a brand of moral reality that you find aesthetically appealing, but this personal appeal does not entail the truth of god's existence.

 

[Stevo.]

There was morality before your 'god' existed.

 

[Stevo.]

All your silly ideas stem from the belief that your deity exists and we must for the rest of our lives place his metaphorical phallus in our mouths and suck on it for the rest of our lives because you believe it is the 'right' way to live. It's easier for you to have someone to follow instead of thinking for yourself and judging each situation based on your own merits rather than that of your dogmatic religion. I am not a slave to your ficticious fairytales. I am not a prisoner bound by invisible cuffs and dragging an unseen ball on a chain. I am a free man, which is more than you will ever be.

 

[RTTTYTR]

Forget God. Do we exist? Does reality exist? If so who's reality? Are we merely a microcosm of a greater reality?

 

[RTTTYTR]

There was morality before your 'god' existed.

Morality before God? I think the earliest humans had a god or gods, so unless that is in specific relation to a specific diety, then I find flaws in your line of arguement. Further, is it even true that morality exists?

 

[RTTTYTR]

You can't live out Atheism/Agnosticism. Everyday we make moral and ethical decisions. Athiest's can't say that it is absolutely wrong to murder or rape someone. Why? Because in their view everything is relative. Everything is only for the good of the human race, evolutionary advantage etc. Sure, you might say that in your opinion it is wrong to murder someone. But does that mean it is wrong for someone else when they are murdering your sister? If so, why? What makes you think you can force your opinion of morality onto someone else? Except if there is a moral law, given by a moral law giver.. sounds a lot like the God of the Bible.

And is it a coincidence that so many countries have laws against murder and rape? Oh wait, I get it, we don't murder because its not good for the human race. BUT, what about disabled people? Why is it wrong to murder them? They are surely harmful to the future of the human generation. No?

With or without religion, whether the Nazi's won the war or not, whether its for the good of the human race or not, I am convinced to the root of my being that murder is absolutely wrong. Its called a conscience. And its from God.

I would like to go farther and propose why Athiests/Agnostics intentionally blind themselves from the truth of Christ:

-If you are to accept Christ's teaching's and the worldview of Christianity, you must give up the sin that you love so much. (Sex, Getting drunk, cheating in exams, lieing etc.)

-To be truly saved we must humble our pride and accept that God is in control of this world and is a higher being, to some, this isn't convenient.

-It is hard to step out of your comfort zone and persevere through the persecution.


P.S. Just because there are crazy Christian magazines out there does not mean God doesn't exist.

Just a question, can you tell me where in the Holy Bible (The authority text of Christianity) does it state that drinking is a crime (sin)? Jesus himself drank wine (wine is alcohol) in fact he told all of his followers to drink wine as a symbol of his blood. Further, if he had a problem with alcohol he wouldn't have turned water into wine. So either you believe the Bible (The word of God) and are a Christian or you distort it for your own purposes.

As for sexual intercourse, thew Bible again states that you should go forth and mutliply, however one should remain faithful to their partner.

Cheating in exams? Now unless I have skipped over a part of the Bible, where exactly does it mention exams?

Lieing, thou shalt not bear false witness. Yes that is a Christian and Jewish law.

For those who don't believe in God or the same God as you, do they not have a conscience?

 

[RTTTYTR]

hahaha oh my god, i forgot this.

the other day i was flipping through mags in the waiting room at work
they were all these hardcore christian mags coz my ex boss is a die hard christian
anyway, one letter i found extremely funny, especially if you've ever seen cheaper by the dozen 2
"I went to see Cheaper by the Dozen 2 at the cinema the other day. It was rated G and I like good family movies. Nobody warned me of the explosions and violence. Some days later I had a nightmare where I was driving on the footpath, running down pedestrians and blowing things up. I attribute this to the movie. There was no necessity for its violence'.

And then there was the article about how evil Harry Potter is, and how the Bible clearly states that sorcery is wrong and any Christians who read Harry Potter are going against the word of God.

Don't get me started on the articles about marriage, abortion and homosexuality.

Honestly guys, is there such a thing as free thought in Christianity?

Sorcery is wrong, doesn't Jesus engage in a form of sorcery (oh, no sorry, He is the Son of God, thus whilst his actions may seem like sorcercy it is totally different)

 

[iamsickofyear12]

Morality before God? I think the earliest humans had a god or gods, so unless that is in specific relation to a specific diety, then I find flaws in your line of arguement.

But those gods didn't provide people with morals like people suggest today's god does through the bible, people just made up their own morals and assigned them to whichever god they chose to 'follow'

 

[RTTTYTR]

But those gods didn't provide people with morals like people suggest today's god does through the bible, people just made up their own morals and assigned them to whichever god they chose to 'follow'

A couple of questions:

1) What evidence is there to suggest this?
2) Did the people attribute these morals through their Consciousness or Subconscious minds? Were they under the belief that a deity prescribed these morals or were they using religion as a tool of control?
3) How exactly do the past deity worship and modern deity worship differ in this aspect?
4) Which specific people?
5) Which specific deities?
6) Define morals?
7) Define follow?

 

[iamsickofyear12]

A couple of questions:

1) What evidence is there to suggest this?
2) Did the people attribute these morals through their Consciousness or Subconscious minds? Were they under the belief that a deity prescribed these morals or were they using religion as a tool of control?
3) How exactly do the past deity worship and modern deity worship differ in this aspect?
4) Which specific people?
5) Which specific deities?
6) Define morals?
7) Define follow?

Fuck off. I'm not answering any of those stupid questions. If you want to try and prove the validity of your religion by making ridiculous criticisms of straightforward statements do it with someone else's posts because I am not getting involved in that shit.

 

[RTTTYTR]

Fuck off. I'm not answering any of those stupid questions. If you want to try and prove the validity of your religion by making ridiculous criticisms of straightforward statements do it with someone else's posts because I am not getting involved in that shit.

First, I subscribe to no religion, nor am I attempting to validate any religion. Rather, I am adopting a holisitic approach to the issue at hand. Obviously, one of the methods is interpretivism (especially for questions 4-7).

In regards to the evidence, I am trying to have you validate your claims, the same standard that religious adherents should comply to. Now if you have no evidence to support your specific claim, then it cannot be held to be valid. The same notion applies to theological arguements.

 

[volition]

Another question for people who believe in God: Is God conscious?

If it is the case that you believe god is conscious, then I think you have to argue that god exists in physical reality. If god didn't exist in physical reality, but still had a conscious, this is kind of like trying to spend the "concept" of money, but not actually spending any coins/notes.

You'd be effectively trying to divorce the concept from its basing in the physical world.