Does God exist? (3 Viewers)

[Kwayera]

Well, since we lack any plausible naturalistic explanations for the beginning of the universe. Out of nothing, nothing comes.

Yet. Just because we don't know, doesn't mean we won't ever, or we revert to the God-of-the-gaps hypothesis either, because there's zilch proof for that.

 

[Enteebee]

This is in contrast to God who's evidence one would expect, we do in fact find (ie, a seemingly supernatural beginning of the universe, a beginning of time from an eternal state)

This is no evidence for God - There's your problem. There is no 'seemingly supernatural beginning of the universe', that seems to be a huge instance of begging the question. A beginning of time also doesn't point to there being a god.

Sure a god COULD exist within these parameters... just as a red zebra could exist within the parameters "Red land near Africa". Seems fair enough, red land exists near Africa then do Red Zebras exist? No.

That's very fortunate for the man that chooses to believe in everything that he sees no evidence for not believing in! (essentially the opposite and valid extreme of what you are currently doing right?)

Yes sure.

I think my position would be that we should truly stay agnostic and reserve judgment on such issues unless we have a reason to jump to the theistic or atheistic claims.

I don't think we can ever jump to claiming something doesn't exist then. You've set the burden way too high. Though I ultimately agree, I don't see the point in denying that fairies don't exist. Fairies don't exist, I am sure of this as sure as I am of most anything.

Well, since we lack any plausible naturalistic explanations for the beginning of the universe. Out of nothing, nothing comes.

We have plenty of naturalistic explanations, we just don't know yet what exactly happened at the beginning of the universe so it's kinda hard to collect the data to prove one of these naturalistic theories.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

Well, since we lack any plausible naturalistic explanations for the beginning of the universe. Out of nothing, nothing comes.

haven't we already done this

if god is eternal why can't the universe be?

 

[HalcyonSky]

I feel like we've been through this before, but here goes

The reason we don't believe there is red zebras in China, is because we know what evidence one would expect to see if such an animal existed and yet, no such evidence exist. This is in contrast to God who's evidence one would expect, we do in fact find (ie, a seemingly supernatural beginning of the universe, a beginning of time from an eternal state)

....

Un-fucking believable that you'd say something as naive as that after constantly posting in this thread for hundreds of pages. YEAH, TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO PEOPLE ATTRIBUTED EARTHQUAKES TO A SUPERNATURAL ENTITY, ITS BEEN SAID A MILLION FUCKING TIMES ALREADY, WHATS WRONG WITH YOU? USING THE CREATION OF THE UNIVERSE AS EVIDENCE FOR A GOD IS THE EXACT SAME THING AS THIS. what you are saying right now is mirroring the exact same naivity of fucking cavemen.

and no, it is not at all in contrast, Enteebee's post couldnt be put better any other way. And yes, we have been through this before, calling the beginning of the universe "seemingly supernatural" is just an absolute cop-out, and in complete ignorance of the scientific theory which attempts to explain this. Our understanding is forever advancing, maybe we will one day be able to know conclusively what happened.

 

[HNAKXR]

well this will just go back and forth between pascal's wager and celestial teapots.
whoever started this thread should be shot.

 

[Kwayera]

I read from a biology textbook somewhere that a scientist stated the following analogy : a simple wooden stool needs a creator and is impossible for it to form out of nothing, let alone the creation of the world with its perfectly coexisting functions. (something on the lines of that, refer to year 11 NSW BOS syllabus)
So how would people explain the origins of life?
Do you think, say the human anatomy with its numerous metabolic, homeostatic..etc functions, can form spontaneously?
Why wouldn't people see it as God's work? Can't creation be a proof of His existence?

Read your biology textbook again, and past the first page this time.

 

[HalcyonSky]

I read from a biology textbook somewhere that a scientist stated the following analogy : a simple wooden stool needs a creator and is impossible for it to form out of nothing, let alone the creation of the world with its perfectly coexisting functions. (something on the lines of that, refer to year 11 NSW BOS syllabus)
So how would people explain the origins of life?
Do you think, say the human anatomy with its numerous metabolic, homeostatic..etc functions, can form spontaneously?
Why wouldn't people see it as God's work? Can't creation be a proof of His existence?

yeah of course it can all form spontaneously, didnt ur biology textbook tell you that monkeys spontaneously had human babies one day?

 

[Enteebee]

I read from a biology textbook somewhere that a scientist stated the following analogy : a simple wooden stool needs a creator and is impossible for it to form out of nothing, let alone the creation of the world with its perfectly coexisting functions. (something on the lines of that, refer to year 11 NSW BOS syllabus)
So how would people explain the origins of life?
Do you think, say the human anatomy with its numerous metabolic, homeostatic..etc functions, can form spontaneously?
Why wouldn't people see it as God's work? Can't creation be a proof of His existence?

I think the best practical way to prove evolution (or at least our common dissent from apes... which gets pretty close) is in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs1zeWWIm5M (4 minutes)

 

[BradCube]

Yet. Just because we don't know, doesn't mean we won't ever, or we revert to the God-of-the-gaps hypothesis either, because there's zilch proof for that.

Well of course there is not proof of a God of Gaps theory - your asking science to empirically show that a supernatural event happened.

Ultimately, the God of gaps theory doesn't really bother me. If a supernatural God does exist, then we would expect to see instances where naturalistic explanations will not suffice. To be honest I prefer a God of Gaps theory in many instances where the science-of-gaps theory is currently placed (ie, the beginning of the universe). At least the God of Gaps theory can be debunked if found to be untrue. The science of gaps theory will continue forever unchallenged, regardless of whether a naturalistic answer is ever found.

 

[Enteebee]

If a supernatural God does exist, then we would expect to see instances where naturalistic explanations will not suffice.

I disagree. A supernatural god could quite easily exist outside of our universe in some magic world whereby we don't see the instances where a naturalistic explanation doesn't suffice. Even if we find a theory for everything, that's only a theory for everything as far as our universe is concerned. Why must god be found inside our universe?

What you seem to be after is some sort of all powerful alien that exists within our universe... is this what you mean by God? Or do you mean the thing outside our universe that we'd never be able to detect anyway, so even if we could know everything about our universe we wouldn't necessarily find him?

 

[Kwayera]

Well of course there is not proof of a God of Gaps theory - your asking science to empirically show that a supernatural event happened.

Ultimately, the God of gaps theory doesn't really bother me. If a supernatural God does exist, then we would expect to see instances where naturalistic explanations will not suffice. To be honest I prefer a God of Gaps theory in many instances where the science-of-gaps theory is currently placed (ie, the beginning of the universe). At least the God of Gaps theory can be debunked if found to be untrue. The science of gaps theory will continue forever unchallenged, regardless of whether a naturalistic answer is ever found.

You don't see the problems with the "God-of-the-gaps" (GOTG) hypothesis? The fact that it has stifled scientific progress and understanding for thousands of years? If we ascribed to the GOTGH then we'd never know about disease, about natural hazards, heck anything about the world, because we'd excuse it as "oh, God must have done it."

 

[Kwayera]

In terms of `form spontaneously`, i mean the origin of life. According to textbooks, life formed from the primordial soup. But what was before that? How did the primordial soup form? Where did the amino acids come from? How can something come from nothing?

It didn't form spontaneously. Amino acids are formed from products readily available in the ancient oceans (and today's) - it's just increasing levels of complexity.

 

[Farfour]

In terms of `form spontaneously`, i mean the origin of life. According to textbooks, life formed from the primordial soup. But what was before that? How did the primordial soup form? Where did the amino acids come from? How can something come from nothing?

You can create amino acids in a lab given the right conditions. Amino acids -> proteins -> ad infinitum

 

[Enteebee]

How can something come from nothing?

Maybe there always was 'something' ?

 

[Farfour]

Something can come from nothing kpl0x, read any quantum theory:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_fluctuation

 

[Farfour]

Please can everyone in this thread who is struggling with science read "A short history of nearly everything" by Bill Bryson.

 

[Enteebee]

Something can come from nothing kpl0x, read any quantum theory:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_fluctuation

That's an observation, it doesn't explain 'how' it comes from nothing.

 

[Farfour]

That's an observation, it doesn't explain 'how' it comes from nothing.

Well shit then it's obviously magic.

EDIT: I can't be bothered to repost this post that has been posted a bajillion times.

 

[BradCube]

This is no evidence for God - There's your problem. There is no 'seemingly supernatural beginning of the universe', that seems to be a huge instance of begging the question. A beginning of time also doesn't point to there being a god.

Let me rephrase then to "a seemingly impossible naturalistic explanation to the beginning of the universe". I don't think it's question begging. I mean, sure, it pre-supposes that a supernatural explanation is the cause, but this is after all naturalistic explanations have been exhausted - it's the next logical conclusion to make right? Surely denying so presumes that naturalism is true?

A beginning of time points to a timeless source of creation (assuming the universe is not without cause). Whilst not the only property of God (and thus, naturalistic explanations could still be proposed when looking at this factor alone) it is an attribute worth noting.

Sure a god COULD exist within these parameters... just as a red zebra could exist within the parameters "Red land near Africa". Seems fair enough, red land exists near Africa then do Red Zebras exist? No.

I think you've got the roles reversed in your example here. If God exists, then we should expect a, b, c. If Red Zebra's exist, we should not expect red land near Africa (unless you want to claim that the red land in Africa is a property of (or caused by) the Red Zebra?).

We have plenty of naturalistic explanations, we just don't know yet what exactly happened at the beginning of the universe so it's kinda hard to collect the data to prove one of these naturalistic theories.

From the explanations I've seen of these alternate theories, most of them fall apart when under scrutiny (or have already done so in the past century).

 

[HalcyonSky]

a part inside of me is dying