Does God Exist? (2 Viewers)

[acmilan]

The reality is that the original handwritten version of the bible exists but has been translated into various versions for easier reading and understanding.

 

[waterfowl]

Eh?
What are you trying to say? Please be a bit more specific. If you're saying that there are more discrepancies in the Quran then, please, go ahead, provide me with examples, qoutations, evidence. Dont just off-handedly say something without proof. Moreover, how does those two discrepancies as you stated prove your point if you had-one-but-didnt-even-mention lol?

Why should the king be allowed to change the Bible though? Just because he has authority does not mean anything. That's like the US president doing the same! Would you let him change the word of God?

I was supplying a quote by a Muslim who was talking about discrepancies in the Quran, because you stated that the Bible was full of them, and the Quran had none.

King James didn't change the Bible, he authorised/commissioned it to be translated into English.
Please don't inflate the US President's ego further, by associating his power with that of a King.

 

[acmilan]

What types of versions? If you mean translations, that's completely different.

No im talking about recited versions such as that of Hafa, Al-Duri and Warsh

edit: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Qiraat/hafs.html

 

[somechick]

No im talking about recited versions such as that of Hafa, Al-Duri and Warsh

edit: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Qiraat/hafs.html

thanks! im already reading it. Have you?

 

[acmilan]

thanks! im already reading it. Have you?

The parts i can understand (ie english). Pretty much seems similar to the differences between bible versions

 

[joujou_84]

I was supplying a quote by a Muslim who was talking about discrepancies in the Quran, because you stated that the Bible was full of them, and the Quran had none.

can i just mention that guy has taken sentences out of different situations and compared them...eg: in the quran in says u shouldnt kill ppl however u do have the right to defend urself( evne if that means killing someone)..yet this man is comparing them seperatly and saying the quran says first not to kill, then it enourages ppl to kill.....so he cant really be taken seriously...

 

[somechick]

The parts i can understand (ie english). Pretty much seems similar to the differences between bible versions

No but you see, they're not. These versions have to do with oral and graphic transmissions: and they are minor, such as: as the missionary showed:
These readings of Hafs are from the `usual' Qur'an text [used in Yusuf Ali for example] while the Warsh text is found in the Qur'an published by the Tunis Publishing Company in 1996.

***qouted text:

Sura Hafs Warsh

2:132 wawassa wa'awsa

(Al-Dani mentions that Abu `Ubayd saw wa'awsa
in the imam, the mushaf `Uthman)

3:133 wasari'u sari'u

5:54 yartadda yartadid

(Al-Dani quotes that Abu `Ubayd saw yartadid in the imam)

3:81 ataytukum ataynakum

2:259 nunshizuha nunshiruha

2:140 taquluna yaquluna

2:125 wattakhidhu wattakhadhu

2:9b yakhda'una yukhadi`una

2:214 yaqula yaqulu

3:37 wakaffalaha wakafalaha

20:63 In hazayni Inna hazani


***end qoute

Now, this was from a Christian missionary's perspective, and all he seemed to find were a change in the pronounciation of words.
Compared to the changes in the extraction and implants with the Bible, I think you can say yourself that it is like a pin prick to a boulder. It does not change the meaning. And, these are not versions as like the King James Version, the RSV, the Roman Catholic Version etc, where you find they are distinctly different.

Moreover, I've already said this but the Bible was written by DIFFERENT PEOPLE, NOT MESSENGERS OF GOD.

Also, these are not versions. The missionary who claims so even says himself that:

"There are many more variants, but the above should be enough to show that there are indeed textual differences in currently printed and recited Qur'ans".

Textual differences. Not versions. And as he showed himself, these textual differences go in the form of for example,

*Australian*
Rumours
*American*
Rumors.

 

[waterfowl]

Psalm 91:1-2

He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High
will rest in the shadow of the Almighty.

I will say of the LORD , "He is my refuge and my fortress,

my God, in whom I trust."

NIV

You who sit down in the High God's presence, spend the night in Shaddai's shadow,
Say this: "GOD, you're my refuge.

I trust in you and I'm safe!"

The Message

HE WHO dwells in the secret place of the Most High shall remain stable and fixed under the shadow of the Almighty [Whose power no foe can withstand].
I will say of the Lord, He is my Refuge and my Fortress, my God; on Him I lean and rely, and in Him I [confidently] trust!

Amplified

He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High
Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
I will say of the LORD, "He is my refuge and my fortress;
My God, in Him I will trust."

NKJV

Wer unter dem Schirm des Höchsten sitzt und unter dem Schatten des Allmächtigen bleibt,
der spricht zu dem HERRN: Meine Zuversicht und meine Burg, mein Gott, auf den ich hoffe.

Luther Bibel


Although they all say something different, they still mean the same thing! They are just worded differently.

 

[firehose]

Psalm 91:1-2

He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High
will rest in the shadow of the Almighty.

I will say of the LORD , "He is my refuge and my fortress,

my God, in whom I trust."

NIV

You who sit down in the High God's presence, spend the night in Shaddai's shadow,
Say this: "GOD, you're my refuge.

I trust in you and I'm safe!"

The Message

HE WHO dwells in the secret place of the Most High shall remain stable and fixed under the shadow of the Almighty [Whose power no foe can withstand].
I will say of the Lord, He is my Refuge and my Fortress, my God; on Him I lean and rely, and in Him I [confidently] trust!

Amplified

He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High
Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
I will say of the LORD, "He is my refuge and my fortress;
My God, in Him I will trust."

NKJV

Wer unter dem Schirm des Höchsten sitzt und unter dem Schatten des Allmächtigen bleibt,
der spricht zu dem HERRN: Meine Zuversicht und meine Burg, mein Gott, auf den ich hoffe.

Luther Bibel


Although they all say something different, they still mean the same thing! They are just worded differently.

EXACTLY. There may be many different translations of the Bible, but the fact is that they ALL PRESENT THE SAME POINT forward. all the little disrepencies that u may find is due to modern human error, but (with the exception of some radical versions of the "bible" which are so changed that they cannot be regarded as God's word no longer; just like a dramatically changed version of the Quran) they all say the same thing.

After all, with the Bible being the world's most recognised book, can u really not expect some dud imitations??

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Why are people still quoting religious texts!?

I'm going to take a break from this until reason makes a comeback

 

[tag.twix]

in my opinion god is not real... becuase these books are written by the hands of MAN.. this has probably been said a multitude of times but think about it poeple.. the society of the time were what we say sexist... gendar roles are evident in the bible and the quran.. if 'god' the divine being created all 'MAN' equal then we should be equal right now.. but we do not see that in our western or any society .. it is becusae MAN was/is (not sure) dominate in society and their presence and the way society WAS parrallels how it is today..

fromt he bible.. god created WOman from the rib of a MAN to SERVE him... but in other passages we see that god wanted man and women to be equal.. it just doesnt make sense..

also form a link when i was cycling this.. 40 MEN wrote the books of the bible.. i believe who TWO.. i say TWO women wrote or contributed to books in the bible.. and their contributions where not that 'influencial'...

there are other areas in the bible which deprive women of their true-selves.. i just dont remrmeber.. i did a study on this last year.. BUT what i am saying is my opinion.. and i know i am bais.. not being reglious and all..

i just belive the bible.. the quran.. phooney..

no trouble == )

 

[Jiga]

This thread will never die, its immortal

I cant believe how many smart people have been here quoting all this crap from both sides of the fence.

There is no god, humans are just stupid enuf to think there is. Eg. Two soldiers in WW2, both pray to god, both think god is on their side. Who was god really wif? Why didnt he stop such bloodshed and the stuff we see today? So many questions which require so many answers its jus not funny

 

[somechick]

Psalm 91:1-2

He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High
will rest in the shadow of the Almighty.

I will say of the LORD , "He is my refuge and my fortress,

my God, in whom I trust."

NIV

You who sit down in the High God's presence, spend the night in Shaddai's shadow,
Say this: "GOD, you're my refuge.

I trust in you and I'm safe!"

The Message

HE WHO dwells in the secret place of the Most High shall remain stable and fixed under the shadow of the Almighty [Whose power no foe can withstand].
I will say of the Lord, He is my Refuge and my Fortress, my God; on Him I lean and rely, and in Him I [confidently] trust!

Amplified

He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High
Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
I will say of the LORD, "He is my refuge and my fortress;
My God, in Him I will trust."

NKJV

Wer unter dem Schirm des Höchsten sitzt und unter dem Schatten des Allmächtigen bleibt,
der spricht zu dem HERRN: Meine Zuversicht und meine Burg, mein Gott, auf den ich hoffe.

Luther Bibel


Although they all say something different, they still mean the same thing! They are just worded differently.

This is just one example. It makes it more amplified if it were more than one time. and the truth is, there are others.

 

[somechick]

in my opinion god is not real... becuase these books are written by the hands of MAN.. this has probably been said a multitude of times but think about it poeple.. the society of the time were what we say sexist... gendar roles are evident in the bible and the quran.. if 'god' the divine being created all 'MAN' equal then we should be equal right now.. but we do not see that in our western or any society .. it is becusae MAN was/is (not sure) dominate in society and their presence and the way society WAS parrallels how it is today..

fromt he bible.. god created WOman from the rib of a MAN to SERVE him... but in other passages we see that god wanted man and women to be equal.. it just doesnt make sense..

also form a link when i was cycling this.. 40 MEN wrote the books of the bible.. i believe who TWO.. i say TWO women wrote or contributed to books in the bible.. and their contributions where not that 'influencial'...

there are other areas in the bible which deprive women of their true-selves.. i just dont remrmeber.. i did a study on this last year.. BUT what i am saying is my opinion.. and i know i am bais.. not being reglious and all..

i just belive the bible.. the quran.. phooney..

no trouble == )

Good post!

You said that 'these books were written by the hands of men", which is very true. In biblical terms, this is more the case because it was written by men who wrote what Jesus (pbuh) preached.
In Islam whoever, this cannot be the case, because, Muhammed (who is a messenger of Allah) (pbuh), was never schooled. He never knew how to read or write. He was not literate, so what you say about biased opinions in textuality could have never occured through him. He simply said what he was meant to say, and a scribe (eg Abdullah, faithful) would write it down. He was a Shephard. And this isn't just myth, its a historical fact. Historians around the world have studied him. So then, how can a man with no literate background simply 'make this stuff up?', how can he purposely place gender constructs and inequalities when he didn't know about textuality?

Oh and please read the Quran before making assumptions. You said that western society is full of inequality. Islam is accepted by many around the world because of its acceptance of everyone. You're now delving into concepts of culture. Culture, may i say, is VERY different to religion. There are some cultures which make up stuff and say it is 'backed by religion' which is not the case. Cultural constructs are what make up inequality. Look at the status of some women today in the western world. We are treated like objects of desire, material 'possessions' to be made pretty and painted and coloured with make-up, dressed like dolls, inaminate and insignificant. We still dont get the same rate of pay as men.
The more amount of flesh we show, the more we sell. Please don't reply with a post full of muslim women oppressed cliches. If you do, you have obvoiusly been brainwashed by the western media into believing we are all stupid. That, again, is CULTURE eg taliban.
If you have any questions about this, please ask

 

[soha]

infact islam accepted by 1.35 billion around the world
fastest growing religon in the world
estimated to be 1.5 billion by 2020
40 000 ppl become muslim in america every year
even more after september 11
so yeah..
more women accept islam then men
y would they do that if they being opressed and shit

yeah ppl often mistaken religon and culture
e.g...indian culture or pakistani culture to have arranged marriages..not islamic
or..

 

[tag.twix]

Good post!

You said that 'these books were written by the hands of men", which is very true. In biblical terms, this is more the case because it was written by men who wrote what Jesus (pbuh) preached.
In Islam whoever, this cannot be the case, because, Muhammed (who is a messenger of Allah) (pbuh), was never schooled. He never knew how to read or write. He was not literate, so what you say about biased opinions in textuality could have never occured through him. He simply said what he was meant to say, and a scribe (eg Abdullah, faithful) would write it down. He was a Shephard. And this isn't just myth, its a historical fact. Historians around the world have studied him. So then, how can a man with no literate background simply 'make this stuff up?', how can he purposely place gender constructs and inequalities when he didn't know about textuality?

Oh and please read the Quran before making assumptions. You said that western society is full of inequality. Islam is accepted by many around the world because of its acceptance of everyone. You're now delving into concepts of culture. Culture, may i say, is VERY different to religion. There are some cultures which make up stuff and say it is 'backed by religion' which is not the case. Cultural constructs are what make up inequality. Look at the status of some women today in the western world. We are treated like objects of desire, material 'possessions' to be made pretty and painted and coloured with make-up, dressed like dolls, inaminate and insignificant. We still dont get the same rate of pay as men.
The more amount of flesh we show, the more we sell. Please don't reply with a post full of muslim women oppressed cliches. If you do, you have obvoiusly been brainwashed by the western media into believing we are all stupid. That, again, is CULTURE eg taliban.
If you have any questions about this, please ask

i understand what you are trying to say.. if you read my post again i didnt have any information on the quran the final quote.. the quarn.. phooney.. i just believe that all forms of a 'transendent' being is just abit suspect... being humans we have this inner self that we are ruled beucase we have the ability to rule over bascially anything.. it just aches on the back of our mind and relgion is way which cures it..

iw as thinking about looking into the quran.. but i know some female muslims.. they dress as you say.. i dont have anything against that.. nor do i have anything to saya bout the quran.. i just dont know enough basically to start quoting


... you said that culture is VERY differernt to religion.. i think otherwise.. look at the western society.. look at indonisia.. look at japan (shinto) each society different.. becuase the of the influence the majority relgion has.. a society is built up by reglious teachings.. what is being taught in school (rights wrongs) and what is being accepted socially in one country would vary in other.. as you pointed out the vails.. some countries where it is i htink.. THE LAW... or just some strict guideline to how man and women dress.. in australia we are lucky enough to say 'tolerate' other races, cultures, reglions, beliefs, sexualities etc etc.. that we.. forget.. or just dont take into account how other societies function..

i know that islam is fast becoming the dominate religion in the world.. and it is just a few extremists that 'ruin' the name of islam religion.. i have mates who are strict muslims they follows the 'rules, guidelines'

also.. you brought up the issue about dressing ... the reason we dress the way we do is beccuase 50 years ago if i saw AN ANKLE of a girls id go :uhhuh: yes.. id be going wild.. and sorry. this is not relevant.. i will stop here about societies n cultures ... haha sorry..

im just pointing out that in the past males were considered bread winners.. and that is why the bible was written as such.. (males dominte females) and that is our most christain (western) soceities work.. its all relative mate == )

in closing.. a soceity is INFLUENCED by religion...

sorry if i am not making much sense i am just typing whatever comes into my head..

 

[tag.twix]

just quesitoing.. i dont understand how he wrote a whole book without knowing a word.. im sure after a whle he got bored of what he was being told =// haha or am i justbeing a prick ??

also do muslim women HAVE to wear everything.. or is it by choice ? (sorry sounding like im bagging out what you are syaing) becuase some of my friends are muslim they dont wear any of it.. they where it occasionally? so what is the story there.. ?

and im sure that there are some suppressions for males ?

in the bible after researching it is very difficult to find anything that demotes the male gendar.. (maybe god didnt like his mom.... ... bad joke) but hey.. shiet happens eh ?

 

[soha]

islam is also a law and guidlines ..a way of life etc..rules etc
so the law of islamic dress is obviously going to be a law in an islamic country
but thats not cullture
the culture of islamic dress would be wearing the whole face covered
or the pakistani way of wearing it
or the iranian way..or the egyptian way of wearing it..indonesian ...afghanistan etc
like the differnet cultural ways they dress..still islamic but the style is influenced by their culture

 

[soha]

just quesitoing.. i dont understand how he wrote a whole book without knowing a word.. im sure after a whle he got bored of what he was being told =// haha or am i justbeing a prick ??

also do muslim women HAVE to wear everything.. or is it by choice ? (sorry sounding like im bagging out what you are syaing) becuase some of my friends are muslim they dont wear any of it.. they where it occasionally? so what is the story there.. ?

and im sure that there are some suppressions for males ?

in the bible after researching it is very difficult to find anything that demotes the male gendar.. (maybe god didnt like his mom.... ... bad joke) but hey.. shiet happens eh ?

ok..the prophet peace be upon him couldnt read or write true
but he didnt actually sitdown with pen and paper
some people he knew did..his companians
firstly he memorized the quaran and they memorized the quaran..because the angel gabriel told him...
and 2-3 wrote it on paper from a tree..like bark paper tree..
neways..thats how


we as muslim women have to yes
its compulsary that when we reach a certain age we dress in full hejab
im muslim and i dont
it depends how u are brought up etc
however no one can force you..
its something personal that u must do on ur own
with proper islamic teachings u probably would
my 21 yr old sister put it on lats year..my 45 year old mum put it on last year
i still dont wear it

 

[dark_angel]

ok..the prophet peace be upon him couldnt read or write true
but he didnt actually sitdown with pen and paper
some people he knew did..his companians
firstly he memorized the quaran and they memorized the quaran..because the angel gabriel told him...
and 2-3 wrote it on paper from a tree..like bark paper tree..
neways..thats how


we as muslim women have to yes
its compulsary that when we reach a certain age we dress in full hejab
im muslim and i dont
it depends how u are brought up etc
however no one can force you..
its something personal that u must do on ur own
with proper islamic teachings u probably would
my 21 yr old sister put it on lats year..my 45 year old mum put it on last year
i still dont wear it

hmm this is quite interesting, may i ask the actual purpose of wearing this article of clothing?