Down syndrome girl has cosmetic surgery (2 Viewers)

[KFunk]

KFunk, my understanding is that children who are accident victims/are born with defects/burns victims are regularly given cosmetic surgery which serves no theraputic purpose more than to make them look better. Other than perhaps some perception that it's different because it's genetic disorder... I can't really tell the difference?

Yeah, that's more than fair enough. If anyone perceives a difference in the situations I suspect it might be based on a concept of 'normality'. E.g. treating burns / fixing a cleft palate / repairing bone damage (etc.) are probably seen as returning a person to how they 'should be', to what is normal for them (though I don't buy into this 'should' myself).

The normal state of an individual with Downs Syndrome is probably perceived as involving the characteristic facial features and so any cosmetic surgery which makes them closer to a population norm simultaneously moves them away from their 'natural' (--> genetically encoded?) apperance. In this sense, such a procedure might be construed as unnatural or unnecessary. As soon as you have some procedure which a) is seen as unnecessary and b) has 'surgery' in its title, people are likely to throw around the consent issue. Toss moderate-to-severe mental handicap into the picture and suddenly you have an ethical issue on your hands. (Then there is also the whole 'why cant we just accept them as beautiful in their own right?' thing).

I may be way off the mark in my characterisation of the situation, but at least this is the rough vibe I get when I examine any naive aversions I harbour towards cosmetic surgery for Down syndrome kids. On the whole, however, I don't have much issue with it. Like you said, there doesn't seem to be much difference compared to burns victim cases.

 

[Omium]

There is something rotten in the state of Denmark

 

[boris]

Do you agree that the child is going to grow up seriously disadvantaged because of their looks? If so then how can you just assume that the parents are doing it out of their own selfishness?

I think she’s going to grow up with Down Syndrome, so of course she’s going to be disadvantaged regardless of cosmetic surgery. Like I said, I haven’t seen the end results but I’m not convinced that minor cosmetic surgery can take away all of her Down Syndrom aesthetics.

It's not a matter of making the child look BETTER than a 'normal' child (i.e. They're not trying to win any beauty pageants) it's just a matter of bringing the child closer to the attractiveness of their fellow peers. BTW do you disagree with children who are burns victims receiving cosmetic plastic surgery?

She has Down Syndrome. To me personally that isn’t a physical disability. You can make her look like freakin Jennifer Hawkins if you want, but when she goes for a job, or goes to school SHE’S STILL GOING TO HAVE DOWN SYNDROME.

I'm talking about a 5 year old burn/accident victim. BTW I think the idea that someone with down syndrome can't decide things for themselves is wrong. My understanding is that the difference in intelligence for most is not much less than average and the only reason they may seem particularly less bright is because of their communication problems.

I think you will find if the burns are severe enough the person is going to remain physically disfigured for life. If you’re talking about third degree burns to the face or upper torso, no amount of cosmetic surgery will totally remove the scars.
Case in point; Sophie Delizio. Most of her cosmetic surgery has been done more so to alleviate pain than to improve her appearances. In any case, her burns are so bad that I doubt they’ll ever be able to fix it.
Difference between a 5 year old child and a 5 year old with Down Syndrome is that the year 5 old has a better chance of distinguishing whats going on.

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Anyway, my contention with the issue is the age and the mental capacity of the child. After all this I support the childs right to look "normal", I just don’t think it’s going to have this wonderful affect on the childs life. I personally don’t see it removing any of the stigmas or challenges she’s going to face.
At the same time I am pissed at society. The little girl shouldn't HAVE to have surgery to fit in with the rest of us. We should be less shit.
Judging by the Down Syndrome kids I know and went to school with, I severely doubt if it were proposed to any of them, that they’d understand what’s going on.

 

[Jess007]

i reckon the parents are just covering their arses for the future. their kid will look normal but still have down syndrome. so dealing with the looks and the life of having a kid that looks like something is actually wrong with them, is different to just having the mentalilty of a D.S child.

its ridiculous though.

 

[boris]

I think this is a case though of don't fix something that isn't necessarily broken. I am sure (I have seen examples) that many Down Syndrome people go on to live normal lives with independence. One works at McDonalds here, another one I know (family friend) stacks shelves at Coles. I don't believe that if this proposition was made to either one of them, that they'd be able to completely comprehend what was going to happen. Nor do I think at the end would it make much difference to how they lived.
I can't remember either one being picked on. Infact the one statement I remember from a stranger was;
'If kids with Down Syndrome can get a job and hold it, despite their disability, why the fuck can't useless dole bludgers get one?'

 

[Gavvvvvin]

Because the store prefers to hire special people because it costs less.

 

[boris]

Because the store prefers to hire special people because it costs less.

It probably does. But they also do the work.

 

[Jess007]

hrmm the parents arein the wrong thats for sure. i don think its right. but maybe the parents think it will save hassles in the future. but as u said, D.S people can hold jobs. so i dont see the issue.

 

[KFunk]

I think she’s going to grow up with Down Syndrome, so of course she’s going to be disadvantaged regardless of cosmetic surgery. Like I said, I haven’t seen the end results but I’m not convinced that minor cosmetic surgery can take away all of her Down Syndrom aesthetics.

She has Down Syndrome. To me personally that isn’t a physical disability. You can make her look like freakin Jennifer Hawkins if you want, but when she goes for a job, or goes to school SHE’S STILL GOING TO HAVE DOWN SYNDROME.

Sure, perhaps the main component of Down Syndrome is the associated mental disability (and the other biological health problems they face like leukaemia and congenital heart disease). However, this doesn't mean that the aesthetics of their appearance don't play a role in constructing the overall disability that they bare. In an absolutely tolerant/understanding society things would probably be fine, but people, and children of course, can be cruel. People who stand out as abnormal often get ostracised, patronised and ridiculed for their physical appearance. The aim is not to fix the entire problem. Noone here is writing under the pretence that cosmetic surgery will deal with the obvious cognitive deficiencies. Instead, the aim of such surgery would be to minimise the hardship they have to face. If you can so much as acknowledge that their appearance might generate problems for them then you should be able to understand the basic rationale behind such 'therapeutic' cosmetic surgery.

 

[KFunk]

I can't remember either one being picked on. Infact the one statement I remember from a stranger was;
'If kids with Down Syndrome can get a job and hold it, despite their disability, why the fuck can't useless dole bludgers get one?'

Of course people with Down Syndrome wont get picked on universally, but it happens. I've seen primary aged kids on the street laugh at a young adult with Down Syndrome because they 'looked funny'. For all their deficits I'm sure a great number of them can work out the directedness of laughter.

 

[boris]

Of course people with Down Syndrome wont get picked on universally, but it happens. I've seen primary aged kids on the street laugh at a young adult with Down Syndrome because they 'looked funny'. For all their deficits I'm sure a great number of them can work out the directedness of laughter.

And countless other kids get picked on just as cruelly without facial deformities or mental handicaps.

I'm just saying I don't think in the case of Down Syndrome that cosmetic surgery will do anything to alleviate any adversity they're going to face in life. I'm not saying I don't support their right to try it (although I think at the age of 5 this is going too far), but I am not as convinced as others that it's going to have this magical effect.

Also I think they need to be careful in the way they explain this to their kid. They can't make it sound like this surgery will stop kids from picking on them, and I can only imagine the devestating effect it'd have mentally if a child was led to believe the surgery would make them "normal"

 

[Gavvvvvin]

So that's how you got a job.

Yeah.

 

[KFunk]

I'm just saying I don't think in the case of Down Syndrome that cosmetic surgery will do anything to alleviate any adversity they're going to face in life.

If you don't think that people can suffer hardship as a result of their appearance then that's that if you're going to be unmoveable - though I really do think you're quite mistaken in thinking this. Why? because you have to deny so much of what goes on around us: attacks on appearance in tabloids, teasing in primary school ("four eyes", "fatty", "'ranga"), bitchiness in high school etc. Some kids go and seek counselling because they are having trouble dealing with persecution based on their appearance. I'm unsure how you go about denying these problems (or, more specifically, that they could extend to those with Down Syndrome).

 

[bassistx]

A kid a few years above me had Down Syndrome. He was freakin hilarious, he loved the Spice Girls and kept trying to pick up chicks. He was awesome and I can't remember him being picked on or made fun of once.

I'm pretty sure he didn't go home every day lamenting about the fact he looked like he had Down Syndrome.

Not necessarily. Many people with problems act happy but in reality, they're not.

I do agree with you though that it was just to make the parents feel better.

 

[boris]

If you don't think that people can suffer hardship as a result of their appearance then that's that if you're going to be unmoveable - though I really do think you're quite mistaken in thinking this. Why? because you have to deny so much of what goes on around us: attacks on appearance in tabloids, teasing in primary school ("four eyes", "fatty", "'ranga"), bitchiness in high school etc. Some kids go and seek counselling because they are having trouble dealing with persecution based on their appearance. I'm unsure how you go about denying these problems (or, more specifically, that they could extend to those with Down Syndrome).

Dude, you're misinterpreting me.
Of course I believe there is real discrimination against looks. I'm not an idiot.

What I'm saying is that;
a. I don't think the surgery is going to have the effect they think it will. If it's only minor cosmetic surgery to pin back her ears I am not convinced it's going to do anything to reduce any adversity she will face.
b. I think it's premature for them to make their 5 year old child have cosmetic surgery because of perceived hardships she will face in the future.
c. I hope for their childs sake they don't have the child convinced it's going to be a miracle cure

 

[boris]

Not necessarily. Many people with problems act happy but in reality, they're not.

I do agree with you though that it was just to make the parents feel better.

Mang.

He had severe Down Syndrome. He couldn't string more than 6 words together at a time, two of those words were 'spice' and 'girl'.
He sure as hell didn't go home every afternnoon and write emo poetry.

 

[boris]

In any event, I personally don't think cosmetic surgery will do anything.

I think for any real aesthetic change to be made, they'd probably have to look at plastic surgery and facial reconstruction.

I just don't think minor cosmetic surgery is going to do anything in regards to changing their looks or minimising adversity, especially when the facial features of people with Down Syndrome are so strong and characteristic of the disability.

http://www.craniofacial.net/down_syndrome.htm

I think it's evident facial reconstruction could have a dramatic effect on improving facial features.
I'm just not convinced cosmetic surgery will have the same impact. Midface dysplasia is extremely hard to rectify, and whilst the cosmetic surgery might do something for the eye malformation I don't think it'll do enough because of the underlying structural problems.

 

[boris]

Give me a minute and I'll summarise my argument for you, incase of further misinterpretation.

 

[boris]

- Of course I believe that physical appearance can lead to discrimination. This is true for those with unfortunate aesthetics as it is for people who are relatively good looking. E.g. you're too ugly for this job or you're too good looking and therefore you must be stupid.
- I support surgery in regards to burns victims, accident victims etc.
- I support facial reconstructive surgery in people with Down Syndrome. Refer to the link I posted previously and it will show that facial reconstruction can be very effective.

My argument against this current example.
- I think cosmetic surgery on a mentally handicapped 5 year old is inappropriate. Especially when the reasoning behind it is future perceived adversity based on looks.
Scenario;
You tell 5 year old Down Syndrome child she is getting cosmetic surgery to make her look more normal. Providing the kid even understands exactly what is going on, how do you explain to them in 5 years time when they're still being bullied? I think especially in the case of Down Syndrome children the way you word the surgery, the way you explain its current implications could be detrimental in the future.
- At the end of the day the child will still have Down Syndrome. So even if they don't have the physical characteristics (and with only minor cosmetic surgery they're still going to have all the other physical traits) it isn't going to mean kids will be nice to said child in the future. There is still the case of the child being developmentally delayed in relation to its peers and I think encouraging and teaching the child to be comfortable with their situation is paramount over surgery to try and make them fit in.

So basically;
I support facial reconstruction based on the evidence, more so in regards to improving quality of life rather than looks.

 

[bassistx]

Mang.

He had severe Down Syndrome. He couldn't string more than 6 words together at a time, two of those words were 'spice' and 'girl'.
He sure as hell didn't go home every afternnoon and write emo poetry.

I'm sorry, but are you implying that people with DS don't have feelings?
I never referred to poetry.