How many labor party members do not have a degree? (1 Viewer)

7th Sign

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Hi All,

I have not posted on this site in years, I remember it was great for Political information.

My question:

I saw some one stating in an article that everyone in the Australian Labor Party had a degree!

I know this was miss informed information as I remember seeing numerous times that Kate Ellis was an Arts drop out before joining the SDA union.

Who else from the Labor party does not have a degree?

Thank you.
 

scuba_steve2121

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Judge the intelligence and integrity of the individual on that they say and do, not on some flimsy piece of paper that anybody with half a brain and some middle class money can get.
 

funkshen

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yes, I'm sure someone here has access to information on the educational attainment of the 30,000 odd labor party members out there.

if you're referring to cabinet members, you can wiki them all yourself and find out.
 

townie

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Wow, 7th sign, there's a poster I haven't seen in a looooooooong time
 

Sathius005

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Michael Danby, the Labor MP for Melbourne Ports is a Bachelor of Arts drop out.
 

Sathius005

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its hilarious the gulf in intellect between some prominent figures in the parties.
Abbott and Turnbull both attended GPS schools, did combined law degrees at one of the best unis in the country and then became Rhodes scholars.
Rudd has an arts degree whilst swann, albanese, bowen all have single degrees. Gillard at least has a law degree.

Im a strong believer in intellectuals leading the country and theres so little of that in the Labor party.
Gillard did Bachelor of Arts and Bachelor of Laws at Melbourne University, Australia's number one law school. Bowen and Albanese did Bachelor of Economics at the University of Sydney. The federal Labor Party is full of very qualified professionals.
 

funkshen

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both paul keating and adolf hitler didn't have university degrees, and yet turned out to be superb economic managers, capable administrators, and cunning political tacticians.
 

scuba_steve2121

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both paul keating and adolf hitler didn't have university degrees, and yet turned out to be superb economic managers, capable administrators, and cunning political tacticians.
Keating wasn't a superb anything. He just did what all treasurers do 95% of the time and listened to treasury, the guys with the degrees. And I'm going to ignore the Adolf bit because that's not worth mine or anyones time.
 

Graney

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its hilarious the gulf in intellect between some prominent figures in the parties.
Abbott and Turnbull both attended GPS schools, did combined law degrees at one of the best unis in the country and then became Rhodes scholars.
Rudd has an arts degree whilst swann, albanese, bowen all have single degrees. Gillard at least has a law degree.

Im a strong believer in intellectuals leading the country and theres so little of that in the Labor party.
Law isn't regarded as a particularly difficult undergrad course, I don't see the gulf between that and Arts. Rudd was born into crippling poverty, a self made man, Abbott and Turnbull were born with the silver spoon, while they were swanning around Oxford, Rudd was shampooing laurie oakes carpet.

Presumably Bob Brown (MB BS) would be your preffered prime minister?
 

flashyGoldFish

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Law isnt regarded as a particularly difficult undergrad course except for the fact that it requires a really top ATAR, has exceptionally high drop out rates and is known to be a very hard course anywhere? Like did you seriously say a Law Degree and an arts degree are the same?

The fact that Abbott and Turnbull were born into more wealth shouldnt be something held against them. Having money and being smart are two different things. You dont become a Rhodes scholar for being an idiot.

Yeah Rudd was doing nothing and then struck it big finding a nice rich wife to make him big.
 

Graney

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Law isnt regarded as a particularly difficult undergrad course except for the fact that it requires a really top ATAR
How do you think ATAR entry scores are determined?

I base this on an article a few years back where Usyd dean said if UAI reflected difficulty, law should be 80ish at most, engineering should be much higher but the demand isn't there.

Like did you seriously say a Law Degree and an arts degree are the same?
I literally didn't say that. They are conceptually fairly similar coursework, you research and you write essays, what's the difference? Do you think the modern Australian legal system is considerably more difficult to study and understand than say, the legal and political system of the Roman Empire?

The fact that Abbott and Turnbull were born into more wealth shouldnt be something held against them. Having money and being smart are two different things.
The point is they had opportunities that Rudd and others didn't, if they are more qualified, it's not purely a reflection of more intellect.

Yeah Rudd was doing nothing and then struck it big finding a nice rich wife to make him big.
Considering before entering politics, Abbott was a failed priest and a journalist, while Rudd was a senior official in the department of foreign affairs, Rudd probably earnt significantly more in his adult life than Abbott, before considering partners incomes.
 

flashyGoldFish

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How do you think ATAR entry scores are determined?

I base this on an article a few years back where Usyd dean said if UAI reflected difficulty, law should be 80ish at most, engineering should be much higher but the demand isn't there.



I literally didn't say that. They are conceptually fairly similar coursework, you research and you write essays, what's the difference? Do you think the modern Australian legal system is considerably more difficult to study and understand than say, the legal and political system of the Roman Empire?



The point is they had opportunities that Rudd and others didn't, if they are more qualified, it's not purely a reflection of more intellect.



Considering before entering politics, Abbott was a failed priest and a journalist, while Rudd was a senior official in the department of foreign affairs, Rudd probably earnt significantly more in his adult life than Abbott, before considering partners incomes.

Thats like saying that university level maths and year 7 maths are the same because you know they both use numbers and you add stuff in both. The logic in that statement and your statement are just as weak.

And youre missing/ignoring my point. Being Rhodes scholars suggest you are close to the top intellectually especially compared to someone who has one of the simplest undergraduate degrees to his name. When prominent Liberals are all highly qualified and Rhodes scholars compared to Labor members who have basic undergraduate degrees, theres a big gulf in intellect
 

funkshen

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while academic achievement is more important today than ever before, the primary attributes of a rhodes scholarship are still achivements in sport and community service. academic achievement is only used to distinguish and select between candidates already sorted, and is thus not the primary basis for a rhodes scholarship award. historically, the most discriminating factor was also what high school and university you went to; candidates generally hailed from the most prestigious schools, colleges, and universities of the empire. the importance of prestige has been somewhat diminished in recent times, considering that one of the 2012 Rhodes Scholars went to Griffith University.

the most ridiculous reason for arguing about the merits of a rhodes scholarship and making determinations between or of a politician's intelligence is that no one here works in HR or recruitment, and has no idea about the actual currency of a rhodes scholarship in industry. the rhodes scholarship is seen as an excellent opportunity both in terms of further studies and joining an old boys network, and is probably an excellent indicator for how self-driven or motivated a candidate is, but is for obvious reasons a poor indicator of a candidate's cognitive capacities.

a party leader, or a prime minister, is not required to be a supreme intellect. the reality is that the modern politician, though he may have his pet projects (e.g. bill shorten and the NDIS) is generally divorced from the policy development process. that is, after all, what a department and staffers are for. the real measure of a politician is and always will be his or her social competence: whether he is an excellent communicator and orator, negotiator and diplomat.

there is very little that distinguishes the cabinet and shadow cabinet. consider the respective educational achivements of each. as of today:

labor had 15 cabinet ministers, all of which had university degrees. between them, they sport: 2 bachelor of arts, 4 bachelor of economics, 8 bachelor of arts/bachelor of laws, 1 masters in IR, 1 masters in public policy, 1 MBA.

the liberals had 19 cabinet ministers, four of which had no university degrees. between them, they sport: 1 bachelor of economics/bachelor of laws, 9 bachelor of arts/bachelor of laws, 1 bachelor of commerce/bachelor of laws, 1 bachelor of commerce, 1 agricultural economics, 1 applied science (economics and geography), 1 bachelor of business, 1 masters in business leadership (lol), 2 master of arts, 2 bachelor of civil law. two rhodes scholars, one fulbright scholar, one commonwealth scholar.

there is minimal difference in educational achievement between labor and liberal. both are quite distinguished. while the liberals have 4 ministers that have received scholarships (and i've already established that these scholarships aren't necessarily representative of intelligence), they also have 4 ministers who have no university education at all. this lack of difference is quite odd considering that entry into labor party politics was generally gained through getting an undergraduate degree (typically ba or b economics, the proliferation of ba/llbs in the labor party is historically unique) and then engaging in union activities. the liberal party was generally distinguished by the number of lawyers among its ranks. indeed, as opposed to entry into labor politics, entry in to liberal politics generally consisted of working as a solicitor or even at the bar for a number of years, meanwhile accumulating industry goodwill, contacts, and favours, and then entering liberal politics.

lolsmith: law at university is very difficult, but for reasons unrelated to general intelligence. high entry ATARs are of course only a symptom of demand and supply and prestige effects. law is generally considered difficult both for the workload, which demands commitment and time sacrifice of students, and the often impenetrable mysteries of law assessment techniques. in fact, if you want to compare the difficulty of studying and understanding the law of the Roman Empire, you can study Roman Law at USYD (taught by justice of the federal court arthur emmett).
 
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scuba_steve2121

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Thats like saying that university level maths and year 7 maths are the same because you know they both use numbers and you add stuff in both. The logic in that statement and your statement are just as weak.

And youre missing/ignoring my point. Being Rhodes scholars suggest you are close to the top intellectually especially compared to someone who has one of the simplest undergraduate degrees to his name. When prominent Liberals are all highly qualified and Rhodes scholars compared to Labor members who have basic undergraduate degrees, theres a big gulf in intellect
And you dear sir are missing the point. Degrees does not automatically = intelligence. Case in point George W Bush has a BA from Yale and a MBA from Harvard business school no less, yet very few would regard him as being an educated individual. On the other hand you have somebody like the writer Mark Twain who is considered by many to very intelligent stopped his conventional schooling at about age 11 and never went back. You can have all the schooling in the world, but that does not make you a morally or intellectually superior being.
 

flashyGoldFish

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Yeah thats an interesting read from funkshen. Interesting to see how it changes with Rudds new cabinet. And are the 4 in the Coalition that arent university educated from the Nationals?

And you dear sir are missing the point. Degrees does not automatically = intelligence. Case in point George W Bush has a BA from Yale and a MBA from Harvard business school no less, yet very few would regard him as being an educated individual. On the other hand you have somebody like the writer Mark Twain who is considered by many to very intelligent stopped his conventional schooling at about age 11 and never went back. You can have all the schooling in the world, but that does not make you a morally or intellectually superior being.
Fair point. University qualifications are not the be all end all but should be important.

I believe there should be some people with a science background there as well.
Definitely agree with this.
 

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