Hypertrophy specific training (2 Viewers)

[Tim035]

Thinking of doing a cycle of this after I start to seriously plateau on MadCows 5x5, any of the more experienced lifters here have any comments or experience in relation to it?

Also, out of interest, at what level do most bodybuilders tend to swap to a 3 /4 day split from whole body routines? Is it due to a need to hit the same muscle group with multiple exercises in order to progress any further?

 

[quik.]

Bodybuilders use splits because it lets them hit the muscles completely, without pre fatigue. They can put 100% into working that bodypart that day etc

As far as hypertrophy plans go, they are great fun. My approach was usually to obliterate myself, leg days being the favourite because of the back squat / leg press / knee extension circuit

Because of the volume I did, I found it good to have a powerade/gatorade or equivalent instead of regular water

Also remember to keep your rest periods shorter, if you are used to longer ones

 

[Oliver04]

Also, out of interest, at what level do most bodybuilders tend to swap to a 3 /4 day split from whole body routines? Is it due to a need to hit the same muscle group with multiple exercises in order to progress any further?

Steroids maintain an anabolic environment within muscle cells for longer periods of time, allowing more infrequent training. This also goes for natural athletes with higher testosterone levels and robust joint structures, hence why they are popular with the 'genetic elite'.

You also need to consider that splits allow competitive bodybuilders to specialize on certain weak areas identified by competition judges and that through drugs their musculature has grown beyond the capacity of their connective tissue/joints and they risk injury in doing full body routines.

Nobody outside the bodybuilding world trains using splits, I think its about time we gave up on them.

Thinking of doing a cycle of this after I start to seriously plateau on MadCows 5x5, any of the more experienced lifters here have any comments or experience in relation to it?

If you use microplates (like the program's supposed to) and eat 200-400 more calories than you expend you will last a couple of years on madcow's linear program, so don't go thinking so far ahead yet.

In Practical Programming Rip does a general outline of how one might approach a bodybuilding program (though specification only occurs at the intermediate level - where linear progress cannot be maintained workout to workout). Basically some isolation exercises are introduced (and only 1-2), the rep range changes to between 10-12 and 30-45 second rest periods are used between sets. He also suggests that a 5x5 day along with a higher volume day (10-12 reps) be used in order to drive progress.

I spoke to Rip about this myself and he said at 90kg I haven't graduated off the novice stage yet and that I haven't yet exhausted the potential of 5 rep sets. Looking at your lifts I'd suggest you might even be below me.

I think you could probably go back to the novice program for a little bit. Save up some money for microplates and try this:

Monday
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench/Overhead Press (alternating)
3x15 Pull ups
*Weighted sit ups*

Wednesday
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench/Overhead Press (alt)
1x5 Deadlift

Friday
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench/Overhead Press (alt)
3x15 Chin Ups
*Weighted sit ups*

Once you stall a few times on your squat or dead, move onto this:

Monday
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench/Overhead Press (alternating)
3x15 Pull ups
*Weighted sit ups*

Wednesday
3x3 Front Squat (or 2x5 squat with 80% max)
3x5 Bench/Overhead Press (alt)
1x5 Deadlift/5x3 Power Clean (alt)

Friday
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench/Overhead Press (alt)
3x15 Chin Ups
*Weighted sit ups*

I think you could milk 6-8 months out of this.

---

At the intermediate stage you have two options:

1) Follow Madcow's 5x5, but replace the bent rows with power cleans and add 3x15 pull ups on wednesday, weighted sit ups x2 per week and 3x10 barbell curls and skull crushers on friday (note: I've been doing this program with rows only for a while, you simply wont get decent back development from just rows, plus they're difficult to progress on).

2) Do a Texas Method program with a football focus (that is, 5 reps but with 1-2 accessory exercises focusing mainly on the upper body, this should get you the mass you're after). My pick would be pull ups and ab assistance work, as well as some arm work on friday:

Monday (high volume/medium intensity)
5x5 Squat
5x5 Bench/Overhead Press (alternating)
5x3 Power Cleans
*weighted sit ups*

Wednesday (low volume/low intensity)
3x3 Front Squat (or 2x5 squat with 80% max)
3x5 Bench/Overhead Press (alt)
3x15 Pull ups

Friday (low volume/high intensity)
1x5 Squat
1x5 Bench/Overhead Press (alt)
1x5 Deadlift
*weighted sit ups*
*3x10 Barbell curl*
*3x10 Skull Crushers*

Drop the arm work if your lifts stagnate. Note the program is still based around a squat, press and a pull from the floor. Most people would never need to leave this.

I'm at this stage and not sure what to do either, but my thoughts are by the time we're finished with the intermediate programs we're not going to be worrying about mass.

btw, use practical programming to experiment with extra training days at this point, and also the new edition coming out next month contains more example programs, so wait for it!

 

[Oliver04]

Because of the volume I did, I found it good to have a powerade/gatorade or equivalent instead of regular water

Ontop of 2-3L of water I'll usually eat 2 pieces of fruit and drink 2 glasses of milk whilst I workout, cause I'm a man.

 

[Tim035]

Awesome read Oliver, reps to you. I'm training at a gym atm where the lightest plate is 1.25kg, and since most lifts are with barbells, the smallest increment possible is 2.5kg, which now 7 weeks in to the program is starting to become too large.
I agree fully that rows are the hardest lift to progress on in the program, it's really been every 2nd week that I'm able to increase my row by 2.5kg.

Although I'm sure on bodybuilding forums many would jump on my head for doing so, I've already taken the initiative of adding 3 sets of chin ups to wednesday's program, such that my current program becomes:

Mon:
5x5 squats (60, 70, 80, 90, 100% max)
5x5 bench (60, 70, 80, 90, 100% max)
5x5 rows (60, 70, 80, 90, 100% max)
4x10 weighted sit ups
2x10 weighted hypers.


Wednesday:
4x5 squats (60%, 70%, 80%, 80%)
5x5 deadlifts (60, 70, 80, 90, 100% max)
5x5 incline bench (60, 70, 80, 90, 100% max)
3x10 chin ups (wide grip)
3x10 weighted situps

Friday:
4x5 squats (70, 80, 90%) + 1x3 squats (102.5%)
4x5 bench (70, 80, 90%) + 1x3 bench (102.5%)
4x5 rows (70, 80, 90%) + 1x3 rows(102.5%)
3x10 bicept isolation
3x10 dips (shortest rest period between sets possible)
3x10 tricept extensions

I'm not dieing on this program, and feel cutting the compounds down to 3 sets would make for a really short workout... However I may give it a try.

 

[quik.]

100% max is a weight you can lift once, so I'm not sure what the above means

Also, as your lifts increase, 2.5kg becomes a smaller and smaller % increase in total weight, so it should get easier, not harder :x Relatively speaking, of course. 100kg will obviously be harder to lift than 97.5 but you know what I mean

If you absolutely need a smaller increment than 2.5, do you use barbell collars? If not, there is your smaller increment.

If you aren't totally digging your current 5x5 you could try a 10/8/6/4/2 rep scheme, have had a lot of success with it in the past and the higher starting reps will help your hypertrophy goals somewhat.

 

[Oliver04]

Awesome read Oliver, reps to you. I'm training at a gym atm where the lightest plate is 1.25kg, and since most lifts are with barbells, the smallest increment possible is 2.5kg, which now 7 weeks in to the program is starting to become too large.
I agree fully that rows are the hardest lift to progress on in the program, it's really been every 2nd week that I'm able to increase my row by 2.5kg.

Although I'm sure on bodybuilding forums many would jump on my head for doing so, I've already taken the initiative of adding 3 sets of chin ups to wednesday's program, such that my current program becomes:

Dw, in bill starr's real program he recommends chins or pull ups on the wednesday as well as friday 'beach work'. Most of those guys are just parroting threads.

Mon:
5x5 squats (60, 70, 80, 90, 100% max)
5x5 bench (60, 70, 80, 90, 100% max)
5x5 rows (60, 70, 80, 90, 100% max)
4x10 weighted sit ups
2x10 weighted hypers.


Wednesday:
4x5 squats (60%, 70%, 80%, 80%)
5x5 deadlifts (60, 70, 80, 90, 100% max)
5x5 incline bench (60, 70, 80, 90, 100% max)
3x10 chin ups (wide grip)
3x10 weighted situps

Friday:
4x5 squats (70, 80, 90%) + 1x3 squats (102.5%)
4x5 bench (70, 80, 90%) + 1x3 bench (102.5%)
4x5 rows (70, 80, 90%) + 1x3 rows(102.5%)
3x10 bicept isolation
3x10 dips (shortest rest period between sets possible)
3x10 tricept extensions

You've got it (cept you forgot the 4x5 throughout wednesday and the 1x8's on friday, but I'm guessing that's just a typo).

Tbh I think madcow's program is a little overkill as is. The heavy squatting and deadlifting will trash your back, hyperextensions arn't really needed, plus I think both dips and tricep extensions on friday is overkill, I'd do one or the other.

Also i'd seriously consider replacing rows with cleans. They'll build your deadlift up more, they're better for progression and they're just generally more useful around the gym.

Also the overhead press is better than the incline bench imo - it'll prevent muscular imbalances in your shoulders.

I'm not dieing on this program, and feel cutting the compounds down to 3 sets would make for a really short workout... However I may give it a try.

Keep as is, the loading parameters are very precise.

 

[Oliver04]

100% max is a weight you can lift once, so I'm not sure what the above means

Its his 5RM.

He's doing a program designed by an olympic weightlifting champion named Bill Starr designed for bulking up football players (starr was the strength trainer for the baltimore colts and a fair few other big teams). This program has very precise parameters in terms of loading because the individual is squatting, pressing and pulling x3 per week.

It also bares an uncanny resemblance to arnold's first program.

Also, as your lifts increase, 2.5kg becomes a smaller and smaller % increase in total weight, so it should get easier, not harder :x Relatively speaking, of course. 100kg will obviously be harder to lift than 97.5 but you know what I mean

I know what you're saying but even pro lifters cant add big increments every week - take olympic lifters for example who over a 4 year period will add a total of 5-10kg to their 1RM.

Imo microplates are one of the best investments you can make, my biggest regret is not buying them (along with bumper plates).

If you aren't totally digging your current 5x5 you could try a 10/8/6/4/2 rep scheme, have had a lot of success with it in the past and the higher starting reps will help your hypertrophy goals somewhat.

5 is a magic number because it increases hypertrophy, strength and power all at the same time. Other rep ranges work (eg 10/8/6/4/2) but some just work better.

Don't get me wrong, other rep ranges serve a purpose (1-3 is great for power, 1-5 is great for strength and 10-12 is awesome for hypertrophy) but as the program's focus is strength i think he should do 5s.

 

[Tim035]

The 4x5 for all sets on wednesday is what I do, that was indeed a typo. However what is the 1x8 set? I'm not doing that at all currently.

 

[Oliver04]

The 4x5 for all sets on wednesday is what I do, that was indeed a typo. However what is the 1x8 set? I'm not doing that at all currently.

on friday you're meant to do 1x8 after your 1x3 with a slight weight increase from mondays weight. I dont need to be a dick but check the program again

 

[quik.]

Its his 5RM.

He's doing a program designed by an olympic weightlifting champion named Bill Starr designed for bulking up football players (starr was the strength trainer for the baltimore colts and a fair few other big teams). This program has very precise parameters in terms of loading because the individual is squatting, pressing and pulling x3 per week.

I figured but it is a weird way to express it. I'm aware of the program but have never used it personally

I know what you're saying but even pro lifters cant add big increments every week - take olympic lifters for example who over a 4 year period will add a total of 5-10kg to their 1RM.

Imo microplates are one of the best investments you can make, my biggest regret is not buying them (along with bumper plates).

Olympic lifters are a whole different animal, assuming he is still in the beginner/intermediate side of things I don't see 2.5kg being an issue but eh

5 is a magic number because it increases hypertrophy, strength and power all at the same time. Other rep ranges work (eg 10/8/6/4/2) but some just work better.

Don't get me wrong, other rep ranges serve a purpose (1-3 is great for power, 1-5 is great for strength and 10-12 is awesome for hypertrophy) but as the program's focus is strength i think he should do 5s.

Just clarifying because I'm not sure if it was clear

10/8/6/4/2 is 5 sets of different reps, start at 10, add weight, 8, add, 6, etc

I started out using the above, and lots of food, and had great results

Having said that, am now doing heavy/accessory days each week and am having great results with that

Woo variety

 

[Tim035]

on friday you're meant to do 1x8 after your 1x3 with a slight weight increase from mondays weight. I dont need to be a dick but check the program again

You're right, In the front of my workout diary I have a table that you can download that neatly summarizes the mon, wed, fri routines; however it makes no mention of a 1x8 set on fridays. Reading through Bill Starr's original notes though he does indeed mention it.

I'm not too sure if I'd want to do 10/8/6/4/2 since I don't have some one I could regulary count on for spots on the 2 set. Unfortunately my gym seems to be full of mid life crisis mums most of the time, very rarely is their another guy lifting proper weights.

 

[Oliver04]

assuming he is still in the beginner/intermediate side of things I don't see 2.5kg being an issue but eh

I do. Currently I'm getting stuck because I can squat 152.5kg but not 155kg. If I had 1kg increments my progress would be much more quantifiable than randomly moving up after a few weeks of fartassing around.

Just clarifying because I'm not sure if it was clear

10/8/6/4/2 is 5 sets of different reps, start at 10, add weight, 8, add, 6, etc

I started out using the above, and lots of food, and had great results

Having said that, am now doing heavy/accessory days each week and am having great results with that

Woo variety

I'm guessing you do that with a 10RM allowing fatigue to reduce the reps? Rippetoe recommends something similar for hypertrophy as well as flat sets of 10 reps. Again though as Starr's program is for strength I think he should keep to 5.

If you're interested man Rip has an awesome system on hypertrophy which is similar - what you would do is have a day using the 5x5 system (flat sets) followed by a volume day using 5x10-12 with minimal rest periods. The higher reps stimulate hypertrophy whilst the 5's drive up the weight you use for the volume day. Pretty neat huh?

btw - ate well over a kg of meat today. u mad?

 

[quik.]

I'm not too sure if I'd want to do 10/8/6/4/2 since I don't have some one I could regulary count on for spots on the 2 set. Unfortunately my gym seems to be full of mid life crisis mums most of the time, very rarely is their another guy lifting proper weights.

Your gym doesn't have a squat rack or similar? I've never used someone else to spot, personally. The only time it really matters (to me) is squat, in which case safety bars are there. If you aren't comfortable without that's fine though

I do. Currently I'm getting stuck because I can squat 152.5kg but not 155kg. If I had 1kg increments my progress would be much more quantifiable than randomly moving up after a few weeks of fartassing around.

I got to 160/70 adding 2.5kg as a minimum. Some weeks I would put mothers giving birth to shame in the effort department and still fail by those last few inches, score the point to the weights that week and nail it next time.

Failure to lift a given weight in and of itself is not actual failure, just part of the process for me. By no means am I saying this is the way to go all the time for everybody etc, of course.

I'm guessing you do that with a 10RM allowing fatigue to reduce the reps? Rippetoe recommends something similar for hypertrophy as well as flat sets of 10 reps. Again though as Starr's program is for strength I think he should keep to 5.

You use your max for whatever repetitions the set is, if that is what you are asking? It is late and my brain isn't working too good. Basically pile on weight and decrease reps each set, keepin' it simple

If you're interested man Rip has an awesome system on hypertrophy which is similar - what you would do is have a day using the 5x5 system (flat sets) followed by a volume day using 5x10-12 with minimal rest periods. The higher reps stimulate hypertrophy whilst the 5's drive up the weight you use for the volume day. Pretty neat huh?

Yeah like I said I'm doing a heavy / accessory day kind of deal at the moment. Tbh the only time I've followed a program designed by someone other than myself is the first few months.

btw - ate well over a kg of meat today. u mad?

Definitely. Mum seems to think I am a 4yo girl and buys food accordingly. My lifts have thus been the only thing going up, my weight is unfortunately stagnant. Though I can't really complain bout that!

 

[Oliver04]

Thread hijack time!

I got to 160/70 adding 2.5kg as a minimum. Some weeks I would put mothers giving birth to shame in the effort department and still fail by those last few inches, score the point to the weights that week and nail it next time.

Failure to lift a given weight in and of itself is not actual failure, just part of the process for me. By no means am I saying this is the way to go all the time for everybody etc, of course.

I hate failure. It doesnt last long, but its harder to quantify.

You use your max for whatever repetitions the set is, if that is what you are asking? It is late and my brain isn't working too good. Basically pile on weight and decrease reps each set, keepin' it simple

You'd use your max repetition for the first set and as many as possible from that point on (thus you'd get a similar effect)?

Dunno how you change the weight, taking into account factors like RMs and fatigue I'd just be guessing.

Yeah like I said I'm doing a heavy / accessory day kind of deal at the moment. Tbh the only time I've followed a program designed by someone other than myself is the first few months.

Rippetoes is good in that he gives you a basic template and you adjust it from there according to your goals.

I seriously recommend his books - a lot of thought has gone into the anatomy of the lifts and his work on organizing programming, diet and supplementation is incredible. Seriously, along with Bill Starr's Strongest Shall Survive this seems to be the only book which has been able to divorce weightlifting from the mysticism and bro-science of the bodybuilding world.

Definitely. Mum seems to think I am a 4yo girl and buys food accordingly. My lifts have thus been the only thing going up, my weight is unfortunately stagnant. Though I can't really complain bout that!

My mum goes through stages, currently we've just reentered the 'lets let oliver eat what he wants' stage. Typically we eat a lot of meat though, which is probably why going back to 3 meals a day isn't such a death blow for me.

I've kinda discovered diet isnt such a big deal. I mean, most of the guys on bb.com are twigs who previous to lifting had an appetite which called for a cigarette, bowl of water and packet of chips. If you have your protein requirements and calories in/calories out down I dont see it as that complex.

Also lets face it - if we do this long term eventually its not going to be practical to do the 8 evenly portioned meals a day (I've been seeing a few girls who are vegetarian ). But with 3-4 meals a day, milk and protein shakes its going to be manageable.

Love a good bodybuilding rant

 

[quik.]

You'd use your max repetition for the first set and as many as possible from that point on (thus you'd get a similar effect)?

Dunno how you change the weight, taking into account factors like RMs and fatigue I'd just be guessing.

You'd start with whatever weight you can do for 10, do 10 reps. Add weight till it's your 8 rep max, do 8

Etc etc

Next week add weight and do the same

Prob my fav rep scheme for fun factor

 

[Oliver04]

Tim,

In discussion with breezer I've had second thoughts on the rows vs power cleans thing.

Power cleans arn't really a mass builder. Their purpose is that they develop explosive power which helps with the other slow lifts, in particular the deadlift, which in turn create hypertrophy.

Because they increase power and skill I'd recommend them for any strength based sport (rugby, powerlifting etc) and in those circumstances say its imperative that the lifter trains with bumpers.

On the other hand I think if one is training for hypertrophy and does not have access to bumpers then the bent row is fine and would probably do better for hypertrophy anyway, however I'd compliment this with a vertical pull such as a pull up x1 a week.

 

[Tim035]

Tim,

In discussion with breezer I've had second thoughts on the rows vs power cleans thing.

Power cleans arn't really a mass builder. Their purpose is that they develop explosive power which helps with the other slow lifts, in particular the deadlift, which in turn create hypertrophy.

Because they increase power and skill I'd recommend them for any strength based sport (rugby, powerlifting etc) and in those circumstances say its imperative that the lifter trains with bumpers.

On the other hand I think if one is training for hypertrophy and does not have access to bumpers then the bent row is fine and would probably do better for hypertrophy anyway, however I'd compliment this with a vertical pull such as a pull up x1 a week.

Fair call. I'll stick with bent rows for this cycle at least, maybe go for powercleans next cycle. Wouldn't mind developing some power as I plan on starting krav maga once I'm finished with uni in November.

 

[BreezerD]

Yeah, power cleans are also good because they are easier to recover from than deadlifts, but from a mass point of view they have a similar effect on your traps, quads, hips etc.

 

[Oliver04]

Yeah, power cleans are also good because they are easier to recover from than deadlifts, but from a mass point of view they have a similar effect on your traps, quads, hips etc.

I think the biggest problem with cleans is bumpers. Without bumpers and a platform you're just asking for trouble (you'll fuck your bar, weights and floor).