Interest and Job prospects for different uni degrees. (1 Viewer)

[anomalousdecay]

So I received a pm and decided it would be appropriate to answer with a thread:

Hey man wondering if you could help me!

So I'm very passionate about doing actuarial studies or advanced math at unsw.

I've put them as my top 2 preferences along with pharmacy at USYD as my third, however I'm going to push pharmacy down to like 8th preference but I don't know what else to put. I'm really interested in math/science/engineering and I want to degree which has job prospects. Any ideas?

My advice is to do what you will enjoy and have a good interest in. Whether that be in math/science/engineering as you have specified to enjoy or it be in actuarial studies as you asked.

You have to ask yourself if you would even like to do pharmacy or not if you are saying you like math/science/engineering most.

Also, actuarial studies is more business and statistics based, so you have to ask yourself how passionate you are about that.

Regarding jobs, in Australia you have to work hard nevertheless to land a permanent job. Even in fields where there is a high demand for the occupation, there is no guarantee that you will land a job straight out of uni. You'll have to work for that position still.

Though regarding which have more demand, it would most likely have to be math/science/engineering.

As far as I know, and from reading through right here on the forums, pharmacy seems to have low demand or something. Don't take my word on this, but ask someone in the field who would know about it.

 

[enoilgam]

Regarding jobs, in Australia you have to work hard nevertheless to land a permanent job. Even in fields where there is a high demand for the occupation, there is no guarantee that you will land a job straight out of uni. You'll have to work for that position still.

Very true, although in my view, this doesnt reflect a lack of jobs, but more a lack of demand for graduates. In a lot of fields, graduate programs are limited and most entry level jobs require experience of some kind. The fact is many employers cant be bothered investing in unknown entities such as graduates, even though they are capable of working in entry level roles. Like, there have been so many jobs which I have gone for that have a "1 year industry experience" requirement despite the fact that they can really be done by anyone, even a HS student. I remember one job in particular required candidates to have experience with this particular HR IT system which I didnt have (hence why I was rejected). So I got a colleague of mine to show me how to use the system in my part-time job and after a 20 minute explanation and using the system for an hour, I had it down.

A controversial opinion, but I think the government and industry needs to do better in terms of dealing with graduates otherwise youth unemployment will continue to rise. I think something similar to apprenticeships would be a big step in encouraging businesses to hire young, inexperienced graduates. Graduates are capable and motivated, but for some reason employers just dont seem to want to take a chance on them. As I said to a friend of mine, I'll always remember how hard it was to be a graduate and if I ever progress to a position of power in my field, I'll always endeavour to give them a fair go.

 

[LizzyGrant]

Lol. Subliminally promoting Engo

 

[SquareHeartsAdrita]

Lol. Subliminally promoting Engo

that's how we do it

but yeah I agree with engol; businesses need to hire more grads and move the older people up the chain

 

[enoilgam]

that's how we do it

but yeah I agree with engol; businesses need to hire more grads and move the older people up the chain

It's just ridiculous, I actually think businesses could save money. Like, for some jobs businesses gun for people with years of experience, who would command a lot of money, whereas they could probably get a graduate to do the job for half that amount (and the grad would probably do just as well).

 

[Trebla]

It's just ridiculous, I actually think businesses could save money. Like, for some jobs businesses gun for people with years of experience, who would command a lot of money, whereas they could probably get a graduate to do the job for half that amount (and the grad would probably do just as well).

That's quite rare given that the jobs that require experienced people usually are far too complex for graduates to handle. If the job demands strong technical knowledge of a certain area and/or high levels of responsibility in management then it would be a massive gamble to hire a grad to take that on to do it well in high stakes situations just to save money.

Also, I don't believe the problem stems from a low demand of graduates but more of an excessive supply of them. Obviously demand has been dampened in the current economy but supply has never been higher.

 

[enoilgam]

That's quite rare given that the jobs that require experienced people usually are far too complex for graduates to handle. If the job demands strong technical knowledge of a certain area and/or high levels of responsibility in management then it would be a massive gamble to hire a grad to take that on to do it well in high stakes situations just to save money.

I'm talking more about entry level and junior positions, where businesses require people to have "experience" when in reality, these positions dont require experience at all. I dont think graduates are given a fair go - I just think businesses greatly underrate their usefulness.

Also, I don't believe the problem stems from a low demand of graduates but more of an excessive supply of them. Obviously demand has been dampened in the current economy but supply has never been higher.

I think it's both, but to be honest, there are jobs out there - businesses just put stupid barriers in place which prevent graduates from breaking into the industry. I was lucky enough to have some experience behind me, but I look at so many HR jobs where the company wants an experienced applicant and I think to myself anyone can do this, even a High School student.

 

[RishBonjour99]

I'm talking more about entry level and junior positions, where businesses require people to have "experience" when in reality, these positions dont require experience at all. I dont think graduates are given a fair go - I just think businesses greatly underrate their usefulness.



I think it's both, but to be honest, there are jobs out there - businesses just put stupid barriers in place which prevent graduates from breaking into the industry. I was lucky enough to have some experience behind me, but I look at so many HR jobs where the company wants an experienced applicant and I think to myself anyone can do this, even a High School student.

Given the oversupply of grads in most fields now, wouldn't you say the additional requirement of 'experience' is just a way to differentiate the active from the passive students? No doubt it's very hard to get experience early on though (not sure how it works in hr). Way too many people in universities.

Also, the word 'passionate' gets thrown around a bit too much.

 

[enoilgam]

Given the oversupply of grads in most fields now, wouldn't you say the additional requirement of 'experience' is just a way to differentiate the active from the passive students? No doubt it's very hard to get experience early on though (not sure how it works in hr). Way too many people in universities.

Also, the word 'passionate' gets thrown around a bit too much.

This is more the case with graduate programs than regular jobs. I wont deny that there is an oversupply of graduates, but the problem also lies in the way businesses perceive graduates. In HR, there are heaps of jobs available, but if your a fresh graduate with zero experience, your chances will be very low. Put it this way, how is one supposed to get experience if the vast majority of jobs require you to have some? It's a bit circular.

 

[anomalousdecay]

On a side note:

Some companies will require experience, some will allow for those to start from the ground up (especially those that offer cadetships).

However from experience, there are ways to gain experience without actually working in a job. This includes extra-curricular type fields which show an initiative from you.

However the extra-curricular work should be related to the work you do. Someone I met was exactly in my shoes about 4 years ago and ended up getting work experience in their field through using the extra-curricular as a selling point to land the job over the summer. They were in first year of uni at that stage.

However in my case last year, my extra-curriculars were all team and leadership based, so I was unable to land work in anything related to retail, because those are the least important skills to them. There's a big difference between being able to solve problems compared to performing series of repetitions. Hence why the choice of extra-curriculars is also important.

Sure I could opt for going for work at somewhere like Maccas and flip burgers to make a bit of cash, but in comparison to other stuff that I have done, flipping burgers would get me nowhere.

Now for the main part that is related to this thread (I guess everything we said here is still highly relatable to the topic of Job prospects) :

There is a complete difference in breaking into different industries.

Sure I could break into fast food. However for Engineering, fast food is not even close to being related and will not let you break in as much as taking an initiative and actually going for working on different design projects.

University design projects over fast food any day, week, month or year to break into Engineering. I'm sure there are similar fields to where this also happens, including as Enoilgam mentioned in HR that some jobs were advertised as to people having experience only, when realistically someone with minimal experience can enter into those jobs, provided that they have somewhat relatable ideas and mindsets. Goes to show really that appropriate ideas and mindsets are necessary requirements.

From what I can see, companies will opt for those with experience simply because they want those with the ideas and mindsets to follow through with all their work properly. If a new graduate with no experience is applying, how can they assure that this person does have the right ideas and mindset for working in the company? Answer is really to see if the person has based their past few years revolving about doing things that reflect a strong work ethic in my opinion.

This is my opinion, and I'm still a first year with much to come, so don't take my word on all this, and if you think otherwise, do say so.

 

[Trebla]

This is more the case with graduate programs than regular jobs. I wont deny that there is an oversupply of graduates, but the problem also lies in the way businesses perceive graduates. In HR, there are heaps of jobs available, but if your a fresh graduate with zero experience, your chances will be very low. Put it this way, how is one supposed to get experience if the vast majority of jobs require you to have some? It's a bit circular.

You can't really blame the individual companies who hire with that requirement though. How else are they going to be confident that you will do the job well with little time and money invested in training you up (especially the smaller ones who can't afford training and can't afford to have the new person screw up)? From a business perspective, hiring an inexperienced grad is a risk whilst looking for people with a bit of experience (whether they be grads or otherwise) lowers that risk. If the company does not have the resources to manage that risk then they aren't really going to take a punt at an inexperienced person.

 

[enoilgam]

You can't really blame the individual companies who hire with that requirement though. How else are they going to be confident that you will do the job well with little time and money invested in training you up (especially the smaller ones who can't afford training and can't afford to have the new person screw up)? From a business perspective, hiring an inexperienced grad is a risk whilst looking for people with a bit of experience (whether they be grads or otherwise) lowers that risk. If the company does not have the resources to manage that risk then they aren't really going to take a punt at an inexperienced person.

I think businesses have a wider responsibility in this area and I think the government should provide more of an incentive as they do with apprentices. Eventually, this mentality will lead to a skills deficiency similar to what happens in Medicine. There is a huge demand for specialists but an oversupply of Medical students due to a lack of training programs.

I just think more needs to be done to help graduates transition into the workforce - because there are jobs out there, the country just needs to find a way to make graduates industry ready. Pumping people out of university with a piece of paper only isnt the best way.

 

[Trebla]

I think businesses have a wider responsibility in this area and I think the government should provide more of an incentive as they do with apprentices. Eventually, this mentality will lead to a skills deficiency similar to what happens in Medicine. There is a huge demand for specialists but an oversupply of Medical students due to a lack of training programs.

I've never heard of this issue in Medicine. Can you please provide evidence of this?

I just think more needs to be done to help graduates transition into the workforce - because there are jobs out there, the country just needs to find a way to make graduates industry ready. Pumping people out of university with a piece of paper only isnt the best way.

I think this is already addressed in many cases such as cadetships, co-op programs, industry placements etc. The health sciences and engineering in particular do a great job of these as they are usually incorporated into the degree programs.

In more generalist areas (i.e. those where students select majors) such as commerce this is much harder to implement because the industry experience needs to be relevant to what you choose to major in which doesn't become confirmed until the final year. There are existing programs in place in some universities for degrees like commerce to get graduates 'industry ready' but there are just way too many people doing the degree compared to the number of firms willing to offer graduates that experience, thus it becomes a competitive process.

There is still the fundamental problem of graduate oversupply.

 

[anomalousdecay]

I just think more needs to be done to help graduates transition into the workforce - because there are jobs out there, the country just needs to find a way to make graduates industry ready. Pumping people out of university with a piece of paper only isnt the best way.

This. Once universities started getting their engineering programs accredited by Engineers Australia, all universities now introduced that before you can graduate with your degree, you must do minimum of 60 days of work experience.

This may be a reason why quite a few graduate engineers still find jobs in comparison to other areas. The initiative in practice does seem like a temporary solution.

However, I have heard of stories where some students have not been able to obtain their degree due to an inability to find the work experience and as a result I actually have no clue what happens to them after that. Sounds like a horrible situation to be in really.

 

[enoilgam]

I've never heard of this issue in Medicine. Can you please provide evidence of this?

Medman has mentioned it a few times across the forums.

I think this is already addressed in many cases such as cadetships, co-op programs, industry placements etc. The health sciences and engineering in particular do a great job of these as they are usually incorporated into the degree programs.

In more generalist areas (i.e. those where students select majors) such as commerce this is much harder to implement because the industry experience needs to be relevant to what you choose to major in which doesn't become confirmed until the final year. There are existing programs in place in some universities for degrees like commerce to get graduates 'industry ready' but there are just way too many people doing the degree compared to the number of firms willing to offer graduates that experience, thus it becomes a competitive process.

There is still the fundamental problem of graduate oversupply.

There arent nearly enough of those placements and most are only offered by big firms. An incentive by the government would open up a wider market for graduates in terms of smaller firms. If you look at apprenticeships, they attract businesses with only a handful of employees to get involved. I firmly believe that whilst oversupply is an issue, there are jobs out there - it's just that system is pumping out graduates who arent industry ready. Students do shoulder some of the onus for professional development I will admit, but they are limited by businesses who put up so many barriers to entry.

 

[OzKo]

Article doesn't focus on the graduate market nor does it necessarily apply to the market (it may though) but it's interesting to see how graduates could be perceived, assuming that these attitudes carry over.

http://www.smh.com.au/small-business/managing/would-you-employ-a-gen-y-20140804-3d46q.html

 

[isildurrrr1]

but if your a fresh graduate with zero experience, your chances will be very low. Put it this way, how is one supposed to get experience if the vast majority of jobs require you to have some? It's a bit circular.

that's the catch 22.

it's just HR departments being lazy. why specifically 5 years of experience? is 4 a bad number? what about 6? shits completely arbitrary.