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Islam Discussion (1 Viewer)

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Generator

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zahid said:
No, you misunderstood. I think that democratic elections are great, BUT exactly HOW DEMOCRATIC are they?
No, I understood what you meant. Despite the fact that a number of Iraqis (a majority, if memory serves) actually support the regime that is currently being created (with US support), you are of the opinion that they are misguided and that it's the reactive minority who happen to be 'correct'. I'm right, aren't I?

Look, as some here may know, I wasn't a fan of the war and I'd still like to see those governments involved properly acknowledge the fact that they originally went to war on faulty intelligence (no matter how noble the toppling of Saddam may be), but I'm not going to sit by and let someone such as yourself demean the many Iraqis who happen to be supportive of the current regime, if not the US 'occupation' itself.
 

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Generator said:
No, I understood what you meant. Despite the fact that a number of Iraqis (a majority, if memory serves) actually support the regime that is currently being created (with US support), you are of the opinion that they are misguided and that it's the reactive minority who happen to be 'correct'. I'm right, aren't I?

Look, as some here may know, I wasn't a fan of the war and I'd still like to see those governments involved properly acknowledge the fact that they originally went to war on faulty intelligence (no matter how noble the toppling of Saddam may be), but I'm not going to sit by and let someone such as yourself demean the many Iraqis who happen to be supportive of the current regime, if not the US 'occupation' itself.
No No No..You still fail to undestand Generator...how can the iraqi people determine their OWN political destiny under western influence...
 

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If "western influence" means freedom of association, freedom of speech and freedom from oppression then they need western influence.

Or perhaps you can explain what you mean by western influence?
 

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zahid said:
No No No..You still fail to undestand Generator...how can the iraqi people determine their OWN political destiny under western influence...
How? I would have thought that a western democratic system would provide a greater degree of freedom for Iraqis to establish their own democratic country for all (i.e., not just a shiite majority) within the nation-state's bounds than one of an Islamic nature similar to that expressed in countries such as Iran.
 

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t0mmy said:
did it occur to you that no christians, jews, buddhists or hindus in this day and age would dare say something so foolish, in public, in this part of the world?

I say "in public" as i don't know what goes on in every Australian household. However, even if it is said privately, the fact is that they are not publically preaching hatred and justifying rape of women like this sheik was.
they do preach hatred publically, its just that we dont realise it... are u telling me the current issues about muslims in Australia, arent preaching hatred...

by the way, he wasnt justifying rape, can u not understand this point, he just said it the wrong way. He was trying to say that a muslim women should cover her body, but obviously he didnt convey his message in an appropriate manner...and i agree, his statements were unjustifiable and wrong... But if it wasnt for the media making his statements so public, u would have never know it even happened

how do we know a christian, jew, buddhist or hindu hasnt made such a statament, maybe its just that it wasnt publicised?
 

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Tommy said:
I'm not going to bother replying to all the pro-terrorist responses individually as they are simply not worth it, so I'll just reply with 1 bold statement.
You arn't bothering because you can't form a coherant or logical response to my position.

I don't care whether you are muslim, buddhist, hindu, jewish, christian or whatever, get the hell out of this country if you do not want to abide by our culture.
I'd like to take this oppurtunity to welcome everyone to Tommyland where his values are Australia's values and anyone who doesn't agree wisn't allowed in the sandpit. Grow up and realise there's more than black and white and that whether or not something is black, white or somewhere in between depends on perspective.

For the following my reply is included in bold.

- Having a cry when you see a bit of a female's skin Christians do this to, and interestingly the fully sik 'wogs' you refer to later do what you do - drool

- Demanding that McDonalds serve halal Welcome to the free market. If enough people demand it it will be supplied. You don't have to buy it. What do you think macdonalds in muslim countries sell?

- Demanding that your shop be open on christmas Well why not? Why should everyone have to celebrate an essentially Christian holiday? Though I'm sure non-christians can enjoy it as a day off.

- Condoning terrorism which aims to destroy western culture Where did I condone terrorism? Zahid condones resistance to an occupier I explain terrorism. Learn to differentiate.

- Trying to change our values I have some disturbing news - the values you espouse have not always been present in Australia. Values change over time this is natual and unavoidable

- Playing your horrible music up to 1,000 decibels so we know where you come from It's already illegal and as much as it must pain you I certainly see alot of bogan-mobiles aussie battler cars with loud music

- Parading your country's flag all over your car (you are here now -- parade the Australian flag, otherwise LEAVE) I don't know where you pulled this from - the only time I've even seen it is around big soccer games (especially greek and italian). Frankly who would cheer the Soceroos anyway? Do you expect people to ignore the world cup because Australia will never play in it.

- Demanding that ham should not be served at council meetings where muslims and jews are present This is about showing respect, something you are clearly adverse to. Only a jerk would intentionally demand ham be served.

- Anything else you little bitches don't like about Australia.That's right Tommy is right by definition anyone who doesn't agree must be wrong - refer to earlier comments RE growing the fuck up.

We are the greatest country in the world because we carry AUSTRALIA'S values, NOT THE MIDDLE EAST'S VALUES. Out of interest what are Australian Values?
Has it ever occured to you that there are other means besides violence?
Like what? Are you suggesting that Iraq's deport the Americans? Did you even think about this before you wrote it? Ultimately any disagreement will come down to violence. If you have two opposing positions it will be a matter of who blinks first. For instance Indian Independence, Britain blinked, they proved unwilling to use bloody force to hold India. Had they not blinked then it would have been down to the Indian National Congress - either use force or capitulate. When you are left no recourse force is your only option.

I don't suppose that you in your new found civil disobediance would countenance violent resistance if Australia was invaded by Indonesia. This would afterall; be resorting to violence, which we both know is bad.

So yes, to preserve these values, we must not tolerate the people that are trying to destroy them.
To preserve freedom we must end it. Great logic - pats Tommy on head and gives Dunce cap.

Glad to see your smartening up, going to be sending your kids to a Catholic school eh?

And by all means have 8 kids, it'll keep you in the shit hole muslim suburbs and out of the good suburbs where we don't want you
There is a certain irony in a catholic making fun of somebody having eight kids....

Tommy if you can muster a coherant one I'd like a specific reply.
 

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- Having a cry when you see a bit of a female's skin Christians do this to, and interestingly the fully sik 'wogs' you refer to later do what you do - drool
Drool, admire, not rape. One is a crime and one isn't.

- Demanding that McDonalds serve halal Welcome to the free market. If enough people demand it it will be supplied. You don't have to buy it. What do you think macdonalds in muslim countries sell?
what they sell in MUSLIM countries, Is Australia a muslim country? no. And trust me, there is nothing wrong with McDonalds profits right now. Management wouldn't be foolish enough to run the risk of serving halal to win over 1% of our population

- Demanding that your shop be open on christmas Well why not? Why should everyone have to celebrate an essentially Christian holiday? Though I'm sure non-christians can enjoy it as a day off.
Because this is a christian nation. You come here, you obey the law and our holidays. It's that simple.

- Condoning terrorism which aims to destroy western culture Where did I condone terrorism? Zahid condones resistance to an occupier I explain terrorism. Learn to differentiate.
When you come here you pledge allegiance to Australia and her allies, and that includes America. Justifying the killing of our allies isn't obeying your pledge of allegiance

- Trying to change our values I have some disturbing news - the values you espouse have not always been present in Australia. Values change over time this is natual and unavoidable
I won't even dignify this with an answer. By your logic, if one believes murder is right because he is tired of letting people live, then he is alright

- Playing your horrible music up to 1,000 decibels so we know where you come from It's already illegal and as much as it must pain you I certainly see alot of bogan-mobiles aussie battler cars with loud music
It's called a hyperbole, get used to it. There's a difference between playing western music and playing islamic music because you're proud of your messed up country that you fled.

- Parading your country's flag all over your car (you are here now -- parade the Australian flag, otherwise LEAVE) I don't know where you pulled this from - the only time I've even seen it is around big soccer games (especially greek and italian). Frankly who would cheer the Soceroos anyway? Do you expect people to ignore the world cup because Australia will never play in it.
Since when is this about soccer? I'm talking about on the back of cars, on 4 wheel drive tyre covers, windows of houses etc

- Demanding that ham should not be served at council meetings where muslims and jews are present This is about showing respect, something you are clearly adverse to. Only a jerk would intentionally demand ham be served.
I want ham, I eat ham, regardless of who is around me. I don't force muslims to eat on ramadan. What I eat in my own country where they have just arrived is none of their business.

We are the greatest country in the world because we carry AUSTRALIA'S values, NOT THE MIDDLE EAST'S VALUES. Out of interest what are Australian Values?
Any value that Australia has that doesn't exist in an Islamic state
 

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Lozacious said:
Muslims seem to think that because they moved in, that this is a sign of Australians saying "heyyy, we give up.. OF course you can take over our country and run it".. Which might have been what Labor was saying, but very rarely does Labor act in Australia's interests.

They also make the mistake of believing that we are a group of people who will perish once islam rises and starts to dominate. This might have been the case in south east asia and in Sudan where weaker people exist.. But not in Australia. Alot of Muslims realise this, which is why they keep their mouths shut and don't express how they really feel, because they know that we have the power to do something about it..

You know.. It's funny how muslims in every other part of the world are radical and oppressive.. but .. the Australian ones are some how different (they aren't, but that's the way they portray themselves). They are just waiting until our force is no longer strong so that they can cause us to capitulate; much to the delight of left wing people in Australia (only god knows why left wing people hate Australia.. But a similar ploy was realised when documents were leaked from the Keating government, which showed their intent to "asianise" Australia).
THANK YOU

Why some people support these muslims is beyond me, but when it comes to the crunch i'll have no issue with ridding Australia of even the white-christian muslim sympathizers.
 

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t0mmy said:
THANK YOU

Why some people support these muslims is beyond me, but when it comes to the crunch i'll have no issue with ridding Australia of even the white-christian muslim sympathizers.
ok now who's the extremist.... chill! :)
 

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chookyn said:
ok now who's the extremist.... chill! :)
ridding = deporting. If i meant killing i would have said killing :) I believe all forms of life are sacred and no one deserves death unless it is to save an innocent life
 

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Lozacious said:
Muslims seem to think that because they moved in, that this is a sign of Australians saying "heyyy, we give up.. OF course you can take over our country and run it".. Which might have been what Labor was saying, but very rarely does Labor act in Australia's interests.

They also make the mistake of believing that we are a group of people who will perish once islam rises and starts to dominate. This might have been the case in south east asia and in Sudan where weaker people exist.. But not in Australia. Alot of Muslims realise this, which is why they keep their mouths shut and don't express how they really feel, because they know that we have the power to do something about it..

really?.. i never knew thats the way i thought...

Lozacious said:
You know.. It's funny how muslims in every other part of the world are radical and oppressive.. but .. the Australian ones are some how different (they aren't, but that's the way they portray themselves). They are just waiting until our force is no longer strong so that they can cause us to capitulate; much to the delight of left wing people in Australia (only god knows why left wing people hate Australia.. But a similar ploy was realised when documents were leaked from the Keating government, which showed their intent to "asianise" Australia).
really?... are they? it seems u dont know muslims at all then..."ALL"???... I feel there is no need to even argue this statement..., as it argues against itself due to its absurd and narrow minded nature!..sorry, but this is the truth!...Muslims in every other part of the world are not ALL radical and oppressive... its a minority ur speaking about... If 1.1 billion muslims were all radical and oppressive, dont u think ud be dead by now, and dont u think we'd be dominating already?...
 

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physician said:
really?.. i never knew thats the way i thought...



really?... are they? it seems u dont know muslims at all then..."ALL"???... I feel there is no need to even argue this statement..., as it argues against itself due to its absurd and narrow minded nature!..sorry, but this is the truth!...Muslims in every other part of the world are not ALL radical and oppressive... its a minority ur speaking about... If 1.1 billion muslims were all radical and oppressive, dont u think ud be dead by now, and dont u think we'd be dominating already?...
the only reason why Muslims are not dominating is because a lot of them are very foolish. America dominates the world and is nowhere near the world's largest country by population.
 

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t0mmy said:
the only reason why Muslims are not dominating is because a lot of them are very foolish. America dominates the world and is nowhere near the world's largest country by population.
the only reason Muslims arent dominating is because they're not ALL radical and oppressive...

Most Muslims prefer to spend their lives studying and getting educated religiously, politically, and in all aspects of life!

I can assure u, all muslims would see these statements about "dominating" as quite out of the ordinary and absurd!

"America dominates the world"!!!... maybe America should try and make peace in the world, rather than DOMINATE the world as u exclaim!
 
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Tommy said:
- Having a cry when you see a bit of a female's skin Christians do this to, and interestingly the fully sik 'wogs' you refer to later do what you do - drool
Drool, admire, not rape. One is a crime and one isn't.
You see you seem to be using cry in several different manners. Conservative christians are certainly no fan of 'seeing abit of a females skin', this they have in common with many other conservative religions. Since when did a muslim male rape every suggestively dressed girl he saw. I challenge you to produce stats that show that muslims rape a disproportionally high number of women.

- Demanding that McDonalds serve halal Welcome to the free market. If enough people demand it it will be supplied. You don't have to buy it. What do you think macdonalds in muslim countries sell?
what they sell in MUSLIM countries, Is Australia a muslim country? no. And trust me, there is nothing wrong with McDonalds profits right now. Management wouldn't be foolish enough to run the risk of serving halal to win over 1% of our population
I don't understand the point you're making. How is it a risk for McDonalds to sell halal (any more so than to sell anything else new)? McDonalds profits are actually down and heading further south to adress this they will inevitably introduce new lines to generate interest and hence sales. This is a natural product cycle. Why do you think we get chilli 1/4 pounders every now and then? If McDonalds introduces Halal and it does well then it must be good.

The other interesting thing is that halal at maccas would help muslims to integrate (something you seem pretty adamant on) afterall maccas is often pointed to as a bastion of western influence so wouldnt it be good to get muslims in the door?

- Demanding that your shop be open on christmas Well why not? Why should everyone have to celebrate an essentially Christian holiday? Though I'm sure non-christians can enjoy it as a day off.
Because this is a christian nation. You come here, you obey the law and our holidays. It's that simple.
Australia is a christian nation now? Plumetting attendence numbers at Church, secular state it all seems to make sense to me. I'm not suggesting that muslims break the law and work on christmas day - I'm suggesting that they take a day off and chill. Its what I do - I don't deck my house with lights, hoist a tree, pray to jesus and hope santa gets me something nice. Last year I worked Christmas Eve and Boxing day (almost did Christmas as well). Alot of Australia stops for Christmas a big chunk doesn't though. Oh and as a note: I was on a AWA so wasn't getting anything extra for working the public holidays.

- Condoning terrorism which aims to destroy western culture Where did I condone terrorism? Zahid condones resistance to an occupier I explain terrorism. Learn to differentiate.
When you come here you pledge allegiance to Australia and her allies, and that includes America. Justifying the killing of our allies isn't obeying your pledge of allegiance
Again you fail to differentiate; I explain terrorism I do not justify it far less condone it. If you bothered to read my posts in their entirity you would have seen that I explicitly stated that Invading Afghanistan was the right thing to do and that Australia should continue to support the invasion of both Iraq and Afghanistan.

Oh yeah, I never came here. I was born here. I have never taken a pledge of allegiance. Were I to have taken such a pledge it would not bind me to support America. Australia's alliance with America does not bind us to support evrything they say - we are not a state of the union. Australia does and should support America because it is in our national interest. When it no longer is we should stop. Realism is a bitch.

And to reiterate explaining the killing of our allies is not condoning it. Oh and as a further note I do not believe that the US should withdraw from Iraq.

- Trying to change our values I have some disturbing news - the values you espouse have not always been present in Australia. Values change over time this is natual and unavoidable
I won't even dignify this with an answer. By your logic, if one believes murder is right because he is tired of letting people live, then he is alright
That is a straw man - read the posting guide. It has absolutely no link with my point. My point was that 'Australian' values change. The values broadly described as Australian have not been constant since federation. Unless you believe them to be solely nationalism and xenophobia.

- Playing your horrible music up to 1,000 decibels so we know where you come from It's already illegal and as much as it must pain you I certainly see alot of bogan-mobiles aussie battler cars with loud music
It's called a hyperbole, get used to it. There's a difference between playing western music and playing islamic music because you're proud of your messed up country that you fled.
Well obviously 1,000 decibels was an exaggeration. At no point though did this influence my response. Your subsequent response did however illustrate the blinding nature of your xenophobia.

- Parading your country's flag all over your car (you are here now -- parade the Australian flag, otherwise LEAVE) I don't know where you pulled this from - the only time I've even seen it is around big soccer games (especially greek and italian). Frankly who would cheer the Soceroos anyway? Do you expect people to ignore the world cup because Australia will never play in it.
Since when is this about soccer? I'm talking about on the back of cars, on 4 wheel drive tyre covers, windows of houses etc
My question so what? What possible effect does it have that someone flys a flag other than Australia's? They live here so obviously they like here better. Actions speak louder than flags.

- Demanding that ham should not be served at council meetings where muslims and jews are present This is about showing respect, something you are clearly adverse to. Only a jerk would intentionally demand ham be served.
I want ham, I eat ham, regardless of who is around me. I don't force muslims to eat on ramadan. What I eat in my own country where they have just arrived is none of their business.
Who said they have just arrived? Heres a news flash jews particularly have been here for quite a while. What you are suggesting is not innocently eating ham unaware that you are sitting between a jew and a muslim it (to borrow your analogy) is more like knowingly waving a slice of ham in front of a jew/muslim and then eating it - with your mouth open.

Next time try and reply to the whole post.
 

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loquasagacious said:
I don't understand the point you're making. How is it a risk for McDonalds to sell halal (any more so than to sell anything else new)? McDonalds profits are actually down and heading further south to adress this they will inevitably introduce new lines to generate interest and hence sales. This is a natural product cycle. Why do you think we get chilli 1/4 pounders every now and then? If McDonalds introduces Halal and it does well then it must be good.

The other interesting thing is that halal at maccas would help muslims to integrate (something you seem pretty adamant on) afterall maccas is often pointed to as a bastion of western influence so wouldnt it be good to get muslims in the door?



Australia is a christian nation now? Plumetting attendence numbers at Church, secular state it all seems to make sense to me. I'm not suggesting that muslims break the law and work on christmas day - I'm suggesting that they take a day off and chill. Its what I do - I don't deck my house with lights, hoist a tree, pray to jesus and hope santa gets me something nice. Last year I worked Christmas Eve and Boxing day (almost did Christmas as well). Alot of Australia stops for Christmas a big chunk doesn't though. Oh and as a note: I was on a AWA so wasn't getting anything extra for working the public holidays.



Again you fail to differentiate; I explain terrorism I do not justify it far less condone it. If you bothered to read my posts in their entirity you would have seen that I explicitly stated that Invading Afghanistan was the right thing to do and that Australia should continue to support the invasion of both Iraq and Afghanistan.

Oh yeah, I never came here. I was born here. I have never taken a pledge of allegiance. Were I to have taken such a pledge it would not bind me to support America. Australia's alliance with America does not bind us to support evrything they say - we are not a state of the union. Australia does and should support America because it is in our national interest. When it no longer is we should stop. Realism is a bitch.

And to reiterate explaining the killing of our allies is not condoning it. Oh and as a further note I do not believe that the US should withdraw from Iraq.



That is a straw man - read the posting guide. It has absolutely no link with my point. My point was that 'Australian' values change. The values broadly described as Australian have not been constant since federation. Unless you believe them to be solely nationalism and xenophobia.



Well obviously 1,000 decibels was an exaggeration. At no point though did this influence my response. Your subsequent response did however illustrate the blinding nature of your xenophobia.



My question so what? What possible effect does it have that someone flys a flag other than Australia's? They live here so obviously they like here better. Actions speak louder than flags.



Who said they have just arrived? Heres a news flash jews particularly have been here for quite a while. What you are suggesting is not innocently eating ham unaware that you are sitting between a jew and a muslim it (to borrow your analogy) is more like knowingly waving a slice of ham in front of a jew/muslim and then eating it - with your mouth open.

Next time try and reply to the whole post.

you are extremely misguided :)
 

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mr EaZy said:
uhuh - probably laughing their butts off right now! :rolleyes:

Or at least getting excited bout the anti-terrorisim laws... :p

On another note Zahid, I'd like to know what you find so utterly abhorant of western democracies that you feel using such a model to help rebuild a war torn nation such as Iraq that has suffered years of turmoil and inequalitly is some kind of henious sin. Moreover, why you feel western society as a whole should not be intergrated into ANY society, yet Eastern cultures should be welcomed into ours?
 
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