Israel and Palestine (7 Viewers)

[MaNiElla]

Re: Israel & Palestine

no i'm saying that HAMAS targets innocent kids, israel doesn't. therefore HAMAS are terrorists, israel isn't. the story that israel just picked up a kid from the road and put him in jail doesn't seem right to me, and since there isn't any proof of it, i choose to disregard it until there is proof. like a prison documentation showing his stay there. or what he was charged with. that kinda thing.

oh really?

well turns out that israel targets innocent kids too, young fella:

a four-year-old Palestinian boy was shot dead by a soldier

Haneen, who was eight years old, had been shot twice in the head by an Israeli soldier as she walked down the street in Khan Yunis refugee camp with her mother

Darwish was sitting at her school desk when a cluster of shots ripped through the top of a tree outside her classroom and buried themselves in the wall. But one ricocheted off the window frame, smashed through the glass and lodged in the 12-year-old girl's brain.

seven-year-old Ali Ghureiz was shot in the head on the street outside his house in Rafah.

Haneen Abu Sitta, 12, was killed while walking home after school near the fence with a Jewish settlement in southern Gaza.

Nada Madhi, also 12, was shot in the stomach and died as she leaned out of her bedroom window in Rafah to watch the funeral procession for another child killed earlier.

^^^ http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1007051,00.html

for more readings:


http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles/Sharma_CNN-Israel-Civilians.htm

http://www.sunherald.com/311/story/67213.html

 

[JayB]

Re: Israel & Palestine

no, i dont want israelis to fight, nor the palestinians, or anyone in the world for that matter. i dont want them to have to. if the palestianins stopped fighting then there would be no more fighting. they choose to keep going.

and i do want a solution. but its been shown that the palestinian govt is unwilling to reach one. thats not my fault.

no, not all arabs have "no respect for human life" but their governments do. and unfortunately, the government dictates the actions of a lot of people.

At this rate, i dont see why they should stop killing the israelis.

thats what it sounded like, sorry if i misunderstood your sentiment.

I just read a few articles where the Jews have said that the whole Israel thing is wrong, they shouldnt treat Palestinians that way, but all Jews said was they they are ashamed of them etc etc ..

good, they can believe what they want, i support their right to say what they want, whether or not i aggree with it.

all these Palestinians died for coz of YOUR people.

assuming you are still talking to me, can i ask you a hypothetical?

if a group of people start a war with another group of people, who's fault is it that people from group 1 die?

You dont seem to care about any innocent civilians who die in the process, as long as a terrorist dies.

thats really not fair. i do care. it shits me that people need to die over such a stupid conflict that has nothing to do with the people fighting it. but i don't blame the same people you do. thats the difference. i still care, and i still wish noone had to die. least of all children or innocent people. i just choose different people to blame.

 

[MaNiElla]

Re: Israel & Palestine

oh there were people there sure, they were jordanian, lebanese or egyption. the notion of a united arabic people called the palestinians didn't come about until the immigration. so therefore, palestinians didn't exist.

Rubbish!! Palestine always existed and the palestinians existed too, and they will exist forever
The palestinians have a culture different to joranians, lebanese, or eygptian, they are a seperate group of people that used to live in the area now called "israel". that sentence you worte above is absolutely, entirely, completely, nonsense.

why would the palestinian people need a right of return if they were already there? where were they returning from? now i mighta missed that, but i read through United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 and i didn't see anything about a right of return. the rights i saw were that nothing about a right of return. but in there it clearly states that arabs cant be citizens of the jewish state and jews of the arabic state. so why would they then say "but arabs have the right to the land in israel?" really makes no sense.

There has to be a right for return for the palestinians, because the palestinians were kicked and forced out of their homes, they were massacred in 1948 arab-israel war, dier yassin massacre, jenin masasacre, ramla, lod, and many many many more. their homes got destroyed, husbands jailed, children killed, wives killed too. Therefore they had to flee, until things became normal again, and until the killings of palestinians stopped.
after the soldiers found out that their were no more palestininas left to kill and to kick, the massacre ended.
israel then refused to let the palestinians go back to their homes, hence the palestinians lost their homes, land and belongings. The palestininas were stuck in the place that they went to seek shelter in, and they had to stay there for ever. They were not allowed to go back to their homes, which is why and how they became refugees.

 

[nathan71088]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Unacceptable. You can't make such claims when there is no evidence of it. There are literally thousands of Palestinians who still own the keys to the very homes they were driven out of. Claiming that they sold these homes is preposterous and ludicrous. You don't need tax returns, because nobody will have this evidence. Because it did not happen. Infact, I think it was Article 8 on the U.N resolution considering conditions of the Israeli state which said people who were permanently displaced should be compensated. They never were.


I would expect an illegitimate government that makes such claims should keep the evidence. The problem is there is no evidence, because people came by the boat full to the land which they now claim is there own. "They came like refugees and immigrants"


You are making rubbish claims, ofcourse I would ask for this evidence. The Palestinians would sell their souls first before selling their right to live in their country, to pray in their mosques, to live and travel into Jerusalem freely. (Which is their right under U.N which robbed them of their land.)


I disagree with the majority of what you have said there. "Ape people" insinuates that they are underevolved, which is a lie. By studying the Eugenics which has taken place in the modern day Israeli people suggests this is not the truth.

The "arrangement" in Palestine is a democracy too. But instead of accepting their presidency, the U.S imposes embargoes and sanctions against them. Using the term democratic and democracy does not make the terrorist nation that Israel is any prettier. It is still a disgusting degradation of human morals, because of what it has done.


Major lie.


That is not true. Infact, that is what Israel did. They substituted the Palestinian peoples land with their own.


Infact I can prove and show people how Israel is "in the wrong."


They had been living there for over 30 generations, and were made refugees into neighbouring states while people from other countries (Yes I know that some Jews lived there, we're not discussing them.) came in and displaced those living there.


Incorrect. I have suggested a one-state solution, where there is an international border. With two languages, two religions and two people. Entwined into land they have history with. with the palestinian refugees being allowed to return home.

Otherwish, a two-state solution where the Palestinians have a strip of land (connecting from the north of Israel) where the Palestinians living in Israel, Gaza and West Bank will have the freedom of movement, and be connected. Rather than being seperated in-between three states.

They need their dignity and the right to a unified country. Not to be split and trapped inbetween 3 states, without the freedoms granted to all people by the United Nations.

Unacceptable. You can't make such claims when there is no evidence of it.
Ahh you misunderstand me, I do not have those documents so I cannot prove it to you. Maybe if you really want these documents you can go and findthem for yourself.


You are making rubbish claims, ofcourse I would ask for this evidence.
You are dreaming here.
Give me documents that give the Palestinians the right to live there. If you cannot supply me with actual documentation then they should not be there...would you tell me I am dreaming to?

It is still a disgusting degradation of human morals, because of what it has done.
Is it anything like stoning your daughter because she marries someone you disprove of...?

That is not true. Infact, that is what Israel did. They substituted the Palestinian peoples land with their own.
They bought the land - Baron Rothschild, JNF, donations from all over the world....


Incorrect. I have suggested a one-state solution, where there is an international border. With two languages, two religions and two people. Entwined into land they have history with. with the palestinian refugees being allowed to return home.
How about the two state solution that Israel offers where everyone can be happy.

Otherwish, a two-state solution where the Palestinians have a strip of land (connecting from the north of Israel) where the Palestinians living in Israel, Gaza and West Bank will have the freedom of movement, and be connected. Rather than being seperated in-between three states.
Once again we go backwards and forwards, why did the Palestinians not accept Campd David 2000? I have read many explanations, but I ask you this: why did they refuse an offer of ample land to build their own state?


Oh I know its futile, I argued with myself as to whether I should post because if you have half a life you'd skip over what I say because, be assured, it's much of the same stuff for the last 40 pages or so. Anyway just for a tangent who knows where the term Palestine first came into history? What kingdom was it refering to?

 

[BritneySpears]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Firstly Aryan could you call me one thing and stick to it, you're soo bloody annoying! :mad1:



Well looks like you finally get what im trying to say.

who the hell said Jews teach their children to become suicide bombers? They just kill people without injuring themselves.

is nt that better than killing yourself and killing innocent people at the same time? Israeli soldiers are trained to kill muslim terrorists and are damn good at it.

Are you serious? If you read every word i said, you would have realised that in Islam, suicide bombings and killing innocent people is forbidden.

Not according many of your prominent islamic leaders. According to your religious leaders, is a duty for muslims to kill as many non muslims as they can.

Nope not my duty, its yours. You're the one saying that driving is banned in Islam[for women], yet you cannot prove it. I drive, im muslim and female, last i checked it was perfectly fine. In Islam women are encouraged to study, etc. Whats wrong with driving? You started this you end it. If you cant then dont make anything up next time.

So religious leaders are the ones who teach this? Well i told you i'll get you to speak with an actual religious leader in sydney yet you dont want to, how are you going to find out what is true when you dont even bother?

Oh so I said driving is banned in islam and therefore womena re banned from Driving in Saudi Arabia by your Islamic Sharia Law? It was your religious leader who said it and banned it. Putting in his own word again,

senior Islamic scholars in the Kingdom had already issued fatwas (religious edicts) saying that women driving cars was sinful and not permissible in Islam. “My statements were misused. This is not the right way for those who search for the truth,” he said. http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&sect...=25&m=1&y=2004

Can you read that? Who banned driving in Saudi Arabia and on what grounds? The Answer is by your religious leader under Islamic Law, not by me. Since your Quran did not ban driving, does that mean Sharia Law in Saudi Arabia is flawed and not a true Islam then? :rofl::rofl:

You can drive in Australia because Australia don't have stone age era Islamic law to regulate its women.

http://www.angelfire.com/ms/domviol/bible.html
Until now i know nothing about Judaism, and theres nothing on the net about it, other than what the Jews say:|

According to wikipedia:


Which is why i asked for books about Judaism, however if we just read ^^and ignore all else then .. i dont see why you speak of Islam when christianity and Judaism are... read and see :|



how is passing an item bad? :S

Yes Judaism or Christian Bible have strict Laws but have you heard a woman sentenced to stoning by death, a woman punished for kissing, a woman beaten to blue for wearing high heels or mini skirt, a woman beaten for adultery or having pre marital sex or any kind of violence by Torah Laws or Christian religious Laws in Israel or anywhere else? On the other hand under Sharia Law, women are oppresed, beaten , abused, raped, and imposed on all kinds of restrictions. Women are killed by their father and brother for apparently bringing shame to their family, womena re stoned to death for adultery, which are unheard of anywhere else in other religion.

Do you have a religion? Do you believe in religion? If you do, how would you react if someone spoke ill about your prophet? [whatever you want to call him] Would you jus accept it? Do understand the concept of an afterlife? Do you understand the fact that you will go to either hell or paradise depending on the decisions you make in this life? Do you understand that when one followers a religion they should follow it to the word? That if someone speaks ill of your prophet you should defend him! Well obviously you dont. I 100% support every word in the Quran. In the Quran it says one must defend the prophet, these people think theyre so smart that they speak ill of him when they know nothing about him or the context/era which he lived in.

Yes I have a religion, my religion does not ask me to kill anyone who criticise my religion, unlike yours. We are tolerant people. If others criticise my religion, we fight them back, of course with words, not by guns or sword, or suicide bombings or any form of violence. On the otherhand, muslims tried and wanted to kill anyone who criticise your religion or your prophet as your religion has been doing it since its inception. As the Pope Bennedict rightly said, a religion spread with sword and threat of killings.

Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached

Of course muslims threatened to kill the Pope for quoting he Byzantine Emperor!

 

[BritneySpears]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Incorrect, they not only had a right to "defend themselves" but they have a right to fend off an invasion. (Whether it be a biological invasion, or a military invasion.)


Any invasion "justifies" a resistance under UN law. (Unless it is a welcomed invasion.) The fact was that the Palestinians weren't invaded by a military force (in 1948), but rather through mass immigration and then later by "dispositioning" and "displacing" them through military means and under British support.

It was your country Lebanon that invaded Israel and Palestine in 1948 to create refugees to be used as slave in your own country Lebanon. Stop blaming Israel for what it did not do. Israel wanted peace and asked for peace since its inception, evena ccepted UN partition Plan which you greedy arabs rejected and instead declared war on Israel more 4 or 5 times which you lost it all because Allah think you are greedy and does not want to help you.

It is illegal to conquer another peoples land. Surely, China or Russia would have the capability to invade one of their surrounding countries. But the fact remains that it is illegal, and will ultimately cause an equal and opposite reaction. (which is what we're witnessing through the Palestinians and people world wide.)

If It is Illegal to conquer another people's land Australia will not exist nor America, nor Arabs in Palestine. Just because you are a sore loser of a war does not mean it is illegal.

Regardless of the fact that it is illegal to annex another peoples land, the Palestinians have an inherent right to return to their land as natives. Regardless of whether they slaughtered palestinians to "claim" ownership of the land, regardless fo whether the border is internationally recognised. Israel breached upto 4 Human rights in preventing Palestinian movement, and denying Palestinians access to their countries.

When Arabs countries give right of return to jews they expelled since 1900, israel will consider about returning of Palestinian arabs into Israel.

This myth is perhaps the most aggravating of them all. Show me evidence that the Palestinians sold;

• Every Mosque
• Every Road
• Every School
• Every Home
• Every Farm
• Their Right to live in the country.
• Their right to return to their country.
• And every other part of the occupied state the currently exists.

Palestinian had all of their rights you mentioned above taken away by Lebs, Syrian, and Egypt Soldiers by invading Israel. Since you are the one who destroyed their rights why don't you give it back.

The simple truth is that none of this happened. Perhaps through immigration a few farms and some farm land was bought. But you don't buy a tiny part of a country and declare it your own. That entire argument is total fallacy. The Palestinians have an inherent right to return to their country. But the Israeli's wont accept that right, they wont give them freedom of movement, or freedom to elect any government.

Israel did not buy land and declare it as its own country, it was UN who decided to create Jewish State of Israel and It was Britain who granted independence to Israel. Jews have inherent right of return to arabs countries from which they were expelled, but arabs countries wont give them that rights.

Instead Israel's pawn the U.S forms U.N sanctions and embargoes against the Palestininians for exercising their rights. (Something you will not accept nor understand out of your own obnoxiousness.)

UN did not sanctions Palestinian you twat, stop pulling words outta your Shiekh's ass.

Palestinians have a right to fight off the occupation of their land. Fighting off an occupation does not make you a terrorist. I've said and proven many times that by the very definition of terrorism, "Israel" is a "terrorist state". They have attacked civilian areas and infrastructure countless times, and have performed raids on civilian zones. You can't say "a whole nation of children" is collateral. Their bombings of the Schools in Lebanon is evidence alone of their terrorism.

Killing Innocents on purpose made them a terrorists. Thats why the Australian Govt rightly declared Palestinian Hamas and Islamic Jihad as terrorists organisations and its fighters as terrorists. Whether you like it or not. I love it cuz the Aussie govt is on my side :rofl:

 

[Atilla89]

Re: Israel & Palestine

It came from the Romans sometime second century when they renamed the kingdom of Judea and was there up to the British. The actual term Palestinian people came about in 1964 by Arafat, as you can see, Palestinian history is far shorter then Jewish history in the area.

And to add contention to this debate - anyone want to give me the verse in the Koran that mentiones the word Jerusalem in it? I asked this a few pages back and noone ever got back to me. Keep in mind I need the bibliography of the Koran used.

P.S. I've been told that the dream that Mohammad went on where he touched on the uttermost mosque (or something like that) constitutes Islam's connection to the temple, but I was wondering if there was anymore to it. I feel that Sam can question the Torah without reading the commentary, then I figured I could do the same with the Koran...

 

[sam04u]

Re: Israel & Palestine

:rofl: Oh, I'm laughing to the point of tears. Why are we arguing with probably the most stupid people on this site? Haha, it's like I said. It's like we're trying to convince Italy that the Penalty they got in the 2006 World Cup was unfair. :rofl:

The actual term Palestinian people came about in 1964 by Arafat, as you can see, Palestinian history is far shorter then Jewish history in the area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines
Scroll down to the bottom.

It was your country Lebanon that invaded Israel and Palestine in 1948 to create refugees to be used as slave in your own country Lebanon.

It was the entire Middle East actually that opposed the british led U.N mandate. They had the same right as the world did to end the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait in the first gulf war.

Anyways, tired of the same old rhetoric. :rofl: Going to have some tea.

 

[nathan71088]

Re: Israel & Palestine

:rofl: Oh, I'm laughing to the point of tears. Why are we arguing with probably the most stupid people on this site? Haha, it's like I said. It's like we're trying to convince Italy that the Penalty they got in the 2006 World Cup was unfair. :rofl:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines
Scroll down to the bottom.


It was the entire Middle East actually that opposed the british led U.N mandate. They had the same right as the world did to end the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait in the first gulf war.

Anyways, tired of the same old rhetoric. :rofl: Going to have some tea.

Even though they sound the same Palestine and Philistine are two dfferent words.
From the site you posted:

British writers of the 19th century and very early 20th century sometimes referred to the Arabs of Palestine as "Philistines". This was apparently not due to a belief in a strong connection with the ancient Philistines, but merely reflects the former convention that "Philistine" simply denotes "native of Palestine".

The Arabic word for Palestine, فلسطين‎, which is pronounced "Falas*īn," derives from the Latin term Palaestina. After the Bar-Kokhba revolt of the Judeans and the subsequent Roman repression and exile, the Romans renamed the entire district of Judea "Palaestina" as a mark of insult to their defeated enemies.

Doesn't that mean the word was used to label the Jewish Kingdom? Just asking, maybe I missed something.

 

[$hiftyIceQueen]

Re: Israel & Palestine

no, i dont want israelis to fight, nor the palestinians, or anyone in the world for that matter. i dont want them to have to. if the palestianins stopped fighting then there would be no more fighting. they choose to keep going.

What makes you think the Israelis will stop? Why should the Palestinians stop they its the Israelis fault to begin with? they 'choose' because they have nothing else to do, they dont want to 'give in' since they wont get what they want.

and i do want a solution. but its been shown that the palestinian govt is unwilling to reach one. thats not my fault.

And this has been shown by... They want something, the Israelis wont give them this something. No solution. the place was theirs to begin with, why should they settle for second best when they are already there?

no, not all arabs have "no respect for human life" but their governments do. and unfortunately, the government dictates the actions of a lot of people.

Where in their governements does it say they dont respect the human life?

thats what it sounded like, sorry if i misunderstood your sentiment.

Nope no misunderstanding. When Israelis get away with killing/kidnapped/hurting/etc innocent people, then there is no reason for Palestinians to be civil towards the Israelis.

if a group of people start a war with another group of people, who's fault is it that people from group 1 die?

?

Its the fault of the group who started it. Israel shouldnt even be around right now, since the place is supposed to be for thePalestinians, so Israelis started it. [Dont use this argument, since we dont agree on who the land is meant to be for]

thats really not fair. i do care. it shits me that people need to die over such a stupid conflict that has nothing to do with the people fighting it. but i don't blame the same people you do. thats the difference. i still care, and i still wish noone had to die. least of all children or innocent people. i just choose different people to blame.

ok

Can i ask you a question now? There are Israelis who have admitted that the gov told them to do something [kill innocent etc] They admit they sometimes try to avoid doing this, yet you ignore it.

I dont hate Israelis i dont hate Palestinians, i only hate those who are in charge of all the killing, and teach others to kill [eg Israeli gov/'terrorists']

is nt that better than killing yourself and killing innocent people at the same time? Israeli soldiers are trained to kill muslim terrorists and are damn good at it.

And they dont kill innocent people in the process?

Could you stop with your Islam hatred?!

Not according many of your prominent islamic leaders. According to your religious leaders, is a duty for muslims to kill as many non muslims as they can.

So you believe the followers rather than God?

Oh so I said driving is banned in islam and therefore womena re banned from Driving in Saudi Arabia by your Islamic Sharia Law? It was your religious leader who said it and banned it. Putting in his own word again,

Last i checked driving was perfectly fine, so why is it that the religious leaders in Aus havent mentioned anything to do with this? Do in any other Muslim country?

Yes Judaism or Christian Bible have strict Laws but have you heard a woman sentenced to stoning by death, a woman punished for kissing, a woman beaten to blue for wearing high heels or mini skirt, a woman beaten for adultery or having pre marital sex or any kind of violence by Torah Laws or Christian religious Laws in Israel or anywhere else? On the other hand under Sharia Law, women are oppresed, beaten , abused, raped, and imposed on all kinds of restrictions. Women are killed by their father and brother for apparently bringing shame to their family, womena re stoned to death for adultery, which are unheard of anywhere else in other religion.

Men and women have the same punishment. If either has sex outside of marriage, or commits afultery, then they both have the same punishment according to the Quran.

Show me! Rape is forbidden you idiot.

--"And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death." Leviticus 20:10


---The law on adultery being referred to here is Deut 22:22 and Lev 20:10 which state:
Deut 22:22
If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.

---Lev 20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

----Exo 31:15
Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death

----Anyone who does any work on the Sabbath must be put to death. The violation of this law and it's consequences are illustrated below:
Num 15:32-36
And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

For something 'simple' ^^

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

Come back and tell me its Islam. [As i already said, there isnt alot of sites about Judaism, and nobody here speaks of those which are..so once i find something i'll let you know]

Yes I have a religion, my religion does not ask me to kill anyone who criticise my religion, unlike yours. We are tolerant people. If others criticise my religion, we fight them back, of course with words, not by guns or sword, or suicide bombings or any form of violence. On the otherhand, muslims tried and wanted to kill anyone who criticise your religion or your prophet as your religion has been doing it since its inception. As the Pope Bennedict rightly said, a religion spread with sword and threat of killings.

Read this:
When our forces come across civilians during a war or in hot pursuit or in a raid, so long as there is no certainty that those civilians are incapable of harming our forces, then according to the Halakhah they may and even should be killed ... Under no circumstances should an Arab be trusted, even if he makes an impression of being civilized ... In war, when our forces storm the enemy, they are allowed and even enjoined by the Halakhah to kill even good civilians, that is, civilians who are ostensibly good

I can find more if you like.

Its from:http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jewhis5.htm

 

[nathan71088]

Re: Israel & Palestine

What makes you think the Israelis will stop? Why should the Palestinians stop they its the Israelis fault to begin with? they 'choose' because they have nothing else to do, they dont want to 'give in' since they wont get what they want.



And this has been shown by... They want something, the Israelis wont give them this something. No solution. the place was theirs to begin with, why should they settle for second best when they are already there?



Where in their governements does it say they dont respect the human life?



Nope no misunderstanding. When Israelis get away with killing/kidnapped/hurting/etc innocent people, then there is no reason for Palestinians to be civil towards the Israelis.




?

Its the fault of the group who started it. Israel shouldnt even be around right now, since the place is supposed to be for thePalestinians, so Israelis started it. [Dont use this argument, since we dont agree on who the land is meant to be for]



ok

Can i ask you a question now? There are Israelis who have admitted that the gov told them to do something [kill innocent etc] They admit they sometimes try to avoid doing this, yet you ignore it.

I dont hate Israelis i dont hate Palestinians, i only hate those who are in charge of all the killing, and teach others to kill [eg Israeli gov/'terrorists']



And they dont kill innocent people in the process?

Could you stop with your Islam hatred?!



So you believe the followers rather than God?



Last i checked driving was perfectly fine, so why is it that the religious leaders in Aus havent mentioned anything to do with this? Do in any other Muslim country?



Men and women have the same punishment. If either has sex outside of marriage, or commits afultery, then they both have the same punishment according to the Quran.

Show me! Rape is forbidden you idiot.

--"And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death." Leviticus 20:10


---The law on adultery being referred to here is Deut 22:22 and Lev 20:10 which state:
Deut 22:22
If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.

---Lev 20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

----Exo 31:15
Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death

----Anyone who does any work on the Sabbath must be put to death. The violation of this law and it's consequences are illustrated below:
Num 15:32-36
And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

For something 'simple' ^^

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

Come back and tell me its Islam. [As i already said, there isnt alot of sites about Judaism, and nobody here speaks of those which are..so once i find something i'll let you know]



Read this:
When our forces come across civilians during a war or in hot pursuit or in a raid, so long as there is no certainty that those civilians are incapable of harming our forces, then according to the Halakhah they may and even should be killed ... Under no circumstances should an Arab be trusted, even if he makes an impression of being civilized ... In war, when our forces storm the enemy, they are allowed and even enjoined by the Halakhah to kill even good civilians, that is, civilians who are ostensibly good

I can find more if you like.

Its from:http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jewhis5.htm

When our forces come across civilians during a war or in hot pursuit or in a raid, so long as there is no certainty that those civilians are incapable of harming our forces, then according to the Halakhah they may and even should be killed ... Under no circumstances should an Arab be trusted, even if he makes an impression of being civilized ... In war, when our forces storm the enemy, they are allowed and even enjoined by the Halakhah to kill even good civilians, that is, civilians who are ostensibly good

You are quoting a Jewish text and I keep saying you can't do that without commentary. This seems to be falling on deaf ears so I will show you why you cannot do so and therefore if you continue...well thats just silly

From the site you supplied that gave the above quoted paragraph:

Thus, one of the two most important commentators on the Shulhan Arukh explains that when it comes to a Gentile, 'one must not lift one's hand to harm him, but one may harm him indirectly, for instance by removing a ladder after he had fallen into a crevice .., there is no prohibition here, because it was not done directly:3 He points out, however, that an act leading indirectly to a Gentile's death is forbidden if it may cause the spread of hostility towards Jews.4

So you seem to be an expert on Jewish literature because you keep bringing up Jewish texts, why does it first say you can cause death indirectly and then it states that you can't cause it indirectly?
Stop quoting what you don't understand.

 

[nathan71088]

Re: Israel & Palestine

--"And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death." Leviticus 20:10


---The law on adultery being referred to here is Deut 22:22 and Lev 20:10 which state:
Deut 22:22
If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.

---Lev 20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

----Exo 31:15
Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death

----Anyone who does any work on the Sabbath must be put to death. The violation of this law and it's consequences are illustrated below:
Num 15:32-36
And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

For something 'simple' ^^

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

Come back and tell me its Islam. [As i already said, there isnt alot of sites about Judaism, and nobody here speaks of those which are..so once i find something i'll let you know]





Read this:
When our forces come across civilians during a war or in hot pursuit or in a raid, so long as there is no certainty that those civilians are incapable of harming our forces, then according to the Halakhah they may and even should be killed ... Under no circumstances should an Arab be trusted, even if he makes an impression of being civilized ... In war, when our forces storm the enemy, they are allowed and even enjoined by the Halakhah to kill even good civilians, that is, civilians who are ostensibly good

I can find more if you like.

Its from:http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jewhis5.htm

Sorry to post a second time instead of editing the other post but I wanted to make an explicit edit. The previous post is a bit irrelevant considering I checked this site: http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jewhis5.htm (the one you posted) and it is a Christian website. If anyone gave an interpretation of the Quaran from a Jewish website that would be quite silly wouldn't it? This site has it's validity for Christian purposes not as a source to discredit Judaism.

 

[$hiftyIceQueen]

Re: Israel & Palestine

its about who wrote some of that that counts.

There are barely any Jewish sites to begin with, so where do you expect me to get quotes from your holy book? All the quotes i find are from 'anti-jew' sites, and i dont know if the quotes are true or not:S

So you seem to be an expert on Jewish literature because you keep bringing up Jewish texts, why does it first say you can cause death indirectly and then it states that you can't cause it indirectly?
Stop quoting what you don't understand.

I dont understand it, which is why im asking you people, who believe in it. You all seem to think you understand what ISlam is about, when you dont. Who said i was and expert? I adready said i know nothing about your religion, which is why im asking YOU people, why it says this, and its its true/false.

ok? I guess you take it personal when its your own religion, yet have no problem when someone says something about another religion.
__________
I dont hate Jews so dont try that with me. If i make a thread just about Judaism would you guys post in it? Like as in give real huge answers and show me where to find stuff about your religion?

Because theres tons of quotes i found, which i want to know exactly what they mean/if theyre true etc..

 

[BritneySpears]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Its the fault of the group who started it. Israel shouldnt even be around right now, since the place is supposed to be for thePalestinians, so Israelis started it. [Dont use this argument, since we dont agree on who the land is meant to be for]

The place is supposed to be for arabs and Israelis, arabs greedily rejected to liev with jews instead decalred war for or five times, lost it all and made themselves homeless. They started the war, lose it and they are the biggest loser ever since.

Can i ask you a question now? There are Israelis who have admitted that the gov told them to do something [kill innocent etc] They admit they sometimes try to avoid doing this, yet you ignore it.



I dont hate Israelis i dont hate Palestinians, i only hate those who are in charge of all the killing, and teach others to kill [eg Israeli gov/'terrorists']

Where's your source that israelis admitted that gov told them to kill innocents? is it pulled outta your Sheikh's arse again?

And they dont kill innocent people in the process?



Could you stop with your Islam hatred?!

Yes when terrorists hide behind civilians the do killed inncent people which made the terrorists happy because they can pose inncent death on their website and infront of TV camera and celebrate it as they usually do.

So you believe the followers rather than God?

You tell me why does billions of muslim believe their sheikhs and mufti's words rahter than what is said in Quran? Why did they made such laws allowing oppression of women as their Sharia Law in Islamic countries? Why don't you explain whether those Sharia Laws in Iran, Saudi Arabia, pakistan etc are wrong or not since they seems to be made up by your sheikhs and muftis to please themselves?

Last i checked driving was perfectly fine, so why is it that the religious leaders in Aus havent mentioned anything to do with this? Do in any other Muslim country?

Australia does not use Islamic Law, muslim countries does and why are you trying to avoid those people oppressed by islamic Law in islamic countries? Yes we are talking about the middle east. Apparently it is not perfectly fine, as mentioned before it is banned under Sharia Law by your religious leader.

Men and women have the same punishment. If either has sex outside of marriage, or commits afultery, then they both have the same punishment according to the Quran.



Show me! Rape is forbidden you idiot.



--"And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death." Leviticus 20:10





---The law on adultery being referred to here is Deut 22:22 and Lev 20:10 which state:

Deut 22:22

If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.



---Lev 20:10

And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.



----Exo 31:15

Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death



----Anyone who does any work on the Sabbath must be put to death. The violation of this law and it's consequences are illustrated below:

Num 15:32-36

And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.

And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.



For something 'simple' ^^



"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."



Come back and tell me its Islam. [As i already said, there isnt alot of sites about Judaism, and nobody here speaks of those which are..so once i find something i'll let you know]

What you refused to understand is Is there anyone PUNISHED by those biblical or ancient jewish laws you mentioned above? Are women stoned to death by jews in Israel? Are women stoned to death by christians in England or America or Australia? Are people punished for breaking Sabath laws? I don't think so. No body force those laws upon others. You know that NO countries, NO religion use their 3000 years old laws upon people to punish them today while muslims use their 1300 years old laws to punish people, oppress womenetc. Women are stoned to death even today in many islamic Countries, put severe restrictions on women in all kinds of activities.



men and women have the same punishment? NOT in practice. Read this http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4477003.stm only a woman is stoned to death for accusation of adultery.

Another (IN)justice from Amnesty International

Discrimination against women in Afghanistan will continue to have grave consequences until the government takes concrete steps to end it, said Amnesty International following the killing by stoning of a 29 year-old woman accused of adultery.



The killing, committed last week, is alleged to be the first incident of the execution of a woman for committing adultery since the removal of the Taleban regime in late 2001.



According to eyewitnesses, the 29-year old, named only as Amina, was dragged out of her parent's house in Urgu District, Badakhan province by her husband and local officials before being publicly stoned to death. The man accused of committing adultery with her is alleged to have been whipped a hundred times and freed. http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGASA110052005

While the woman is stoned to death , the man is freed. Of course under Sharia Law. That is Equal punishment for you.

Read this:

When our forces come across civilians during a war or in hot pursuit or in a raid, so long as there is no certainty that those civilians are incapable of harming our forces, then according to the Halakhah they may and even should be killed ... Under no circumstances should an Arab be trusted, even if he makes an impression of being civilized ... In war, when our forces storm the enemy, they are allowed and even enjoined by the Halakhah to kill even good civilians, that is, civilians who are ostensibly good



I can find more if you like.



Its from:http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jewhis5.htm

You forgot to read the very first sentence of your source which says "AS EXPLAINED in Chapter 3, the Halakhah, that is the legal system of classical Judaism - as practiced by virtually all Jews from the 9th century to the end of the 18th and as maintained to this very day in the form of Orthodox Judaism - is based primarily on the Babylonian Talmud".



Furthermore, orthodox jewish religious laws cannot punish anyone nor interfere in criminal justice. Where as in islamic countries, people are arrested by religious police, tried under religious and sentenced to death under religious laws.

 

[$hiftyIceQueen]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Aryan--->>>Where's your source that israelis admitted that gov told them to kill innocents? is it pulled outta your Sheikh's arse again?


Nope i posted it before, the pilot said they were meant to aim at everything [in Leb] and he tried to aim only at some places [on of few] ..you want me to post it again?

About the whole religion thing, when Jews have their own country ie all laws following Judaism, then we'll talk about it.

 

[nathan71088]

Re: Israel & Palestine

its about who wrote some of that that counts.

There are barely any Jewish sites to begin with, so where do you expect me to get quotes from your holy book? All the quotes i find are from 'anti-jew' sites, and i dont know if the quotes are true or not:S



I dont understand it, which is why im asking you people, who believe in it. You all seem to think you understand what ISlam is about, when you dont. Who said i was and expert? I adready said i know nothing about your religion, which is why im asking YOU people, why it says this, and its its true/false.

ok? I guess you take it personal when its your own religion, yet have no problem when someone says something about another religion.
__________
I dont hate Jews so dont try that with me. If i make a thread just about Judaism would you guys post in it? Like as in give real huge answers and show me where to find stuff about your religion?

Because theres tons of quotes i found, which i want to know exactly what they mean/if theyre true etc..

"its about who wrote some of that that counts.

There are barely any Jewish sites to begin with, so where do you expect me to get quotes from your holy book? All the quotes i find are from 'anti-jew' sites, and i dont know if the quotes are true or not:S"
I don't expect you to get quotes from Jewish texts. They should not enter this discussion because it is not one of religion. ANd definitely if you cannot find something to support your position don't settle for something not valid and bend it to your position!

But just to clear something up - it is good to see that you ask questions about a religion instead of making assumptions. The problem with answering your questions about Judaism is simple: the answers are Jewish answers, based on Jewish faith. For you to agree with the answers I would have to convince you to be Jewish which I do not wish to do because I am sure you are a good person as you are and I assume you are not soul searching for a new religion. So basically it would be easier to keep religion out of this.
If you really want answers that you can accept and understand (as opposed to agree with) you would have to have an open mind that would be challenged on your position about the current issue.
Also, to discuss religion as you want you need to look at it from a non-biased position which would be impossible because we are entering it from a contentious issue and using it in support of a highly opinionated area of debate.
All in all it is best if you stick to the facts and leave religion out of it.

 

[$hiftyIceQueen]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Read them they do have to do with your religion, and there are Jews in Israel who fight as soldiers...

either have something to do with the Palestinians and Israelis/ their treatment, or else about what Aryan is talking about. Go get your facts straight.

and you find it wrong, yet you dont say what is wrong about it, other than where i found it.

Why is it, that once i start talking about Judaism its wron, when someone talks about Islam its on the topic?

I have learnt about most religions, just not judaism [never got around to it] which is the only reason i want to check it out:|

Tell Aryan to stop bringing religion into this!!!

 

[sam04u]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Read them they do have to do with your religion, and there are Jews in Israel who fight as soldiers...

either have something to do with the Palestinians and Israelis/ their treatment, or else about what Aryan is talking about. Go get your facts straight.

and you find it wrong, yet you dont say what is wrong about it, other than where i found it.

Why is it, that once i start talking about Judaism its wron, when someone talks about Islam its on the topic?

I have learnt about most religions, just not judaism [never got around to it] which is the only reason i want to check it out:|

Tell Aryan to stop bringing religion into this!!!

No your source is perfectly valid. They did not bother to read the religious commentary, yet they expect you too? The source you brang up is directly related to the Torah, and it states stoning is acceptable among other things. Regardless, Heba has a point. Why has this discussion strayed to religion? It has nothing to do with relgion, but rather it has to do with the fact that one people displaced another people, and now violently oppress them.

Can you not atleast keep on topic?

 

[$hiftyIceQueen]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Nathan said it first i was only telling him to tell Aryan, instead of telling others to stop [since its against him]

Sorry i got one thing i forgot

Nathan-Would you at least answer my questions in another thread? Or if i PM you?

 

[Atilla89]

Re: Israel & Palestine

"Why is it, that once i start talking about Judaism its wrong, when someone talks about Islam its on the topic? "

In relation to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict - Israel is a secular democracy, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank areas under PA control is a religious (on the point of Zealot) democracy. The point is, Hamas uses a perverted form of Islam to influence Muslims living in the area to kill Jews and Israelis, Israel does not advocate Judaism nor does it use religion to justify its actions, Hamas does. I my self have no problem with Islam or any other religions, its only when one uses religion for murderous purposes or creates a dictatorship based on religion (Islamo-fascism for example Iran).

"No your source is perfectly valid."

No it is not. Using a Christian source to analyse a Jewish sacred text is not valid for obvious reasons. Or would you like me to start using Jewish texts/websites to examine the Bible or the Koran? Thought not...

"They did not bother to read the religious commentary, yet they expect you too?"

Um, you want to stop generalising here?

"The source you brang up is directly related to the Torah, and it states stoning is acceptable among other things."

Seriously stop with this bullshit, read the commentary from the Tanakh and then come back and debate - just because a source is directly related to the object in question does not mean it is valid.