japanese only thread! (2 Viewers)

[Takuya]

Originally posted by mercury
Edited by moderator in favour of brevity

I shall look into the grammar points for you. I'm sorry if I cannot explain them readily with easy example, as I don't know how to express the subtleties in English by myself.

As for 'Jap', I have come to be easy on people who say it without intention to offend, however it still somewhat prods me on the inside when I hear the term. It is a derogatory term which has somehow become widely used. It's a little bit like the word used by African Americans. Sometimes they use it to call each other, other times white people use it to offend them.

My advice to you; Treat Anime as Anime. Watch, listen and enjoy, but whatever you do, don't LEARN. Sure, acknowledge words and phrases which you know, but don't try to pick up new ones from such untrustworthy sources. Another reason why parents don't like their children to watch so much television.

As for my dialect; I come from OSAKA, so I should speak OSAKA-BEN (slightly off from KANSAI-BEN). It has its subtle differences but is widely understandable. I don't feel pressured to use it, but when another speaker approaches me and uses the dialect, I must do so myself in order to avoid appearing stubborn or arrogant.

What you have learnt in class is TOKYO dialect.

 

[Lexicographer]

Takuya, you are my new favourite member.

[standing ovation]

I'm not Japanese, nor have I lived there for more than a month or studied the language since earlier than year seven. However, I can honestly say that as a linguist what you have given voice to is almost everything I have felt for years. Especially about people trying to learn a language for the wrong reasons. I'll stop here, though, before I get into a tirade about those blasted anime otakura.

I must say, though that you have to be careful about your comments on eikaiwa schools. The majority of them will only employ people with a CELTA, and the matter of not speaking Japanese properly isn't that important. After all, those schools are supposed to be for Japanese to speak with foreigners in English, aren't they? Yes, there are still many foreigners in Japan trying to take an easy working holiday by "teaching" English, but most are now realising that if they aren't skilled they will be turned away. Gone are the eighties with their horrible droves of bums going to Japan out of yuppie desperation.

As for the BOS syllabi, you simply have to remember the difficulty with which people wrangle to learn any foreign language. It is my opinion that the continuers course is designed to give students something to think about with what little Japanese they CAN learn in 200 hours. I only wish I were less tired so I could think a proper argument through in defence of the guidelines, but I can't, so suffice it to say that it's about as good as you can get with a compromise between reasonable expectations, interest and functionality.

Beginners IS a joke, but it's a kind one. There are people who only realise their folly in NOT taking a language in earlier years when it is too late to fix. For them the board has provided this hotch-potch remake of year 9 and 10 Japanese. You can't blame them if it is simplistic, these people are starting from scratch.

There'd be more, but I can't think so I'll address everyone else now.

STOP SAYING "~nakereba naranai" !!!!! You're on a forum speaking to peers, for crying out loud use "~nakucha". It's faster and doesn't make you sound like a showoff from Ruse (sorry Ruse people). And, if you MUST use that, they ARE two seperate words. Seperate them!

 

[mercury]

takuya, thanks for all your help, really appreciated that! So do you speak in tokyo dialect usually?

and lex... saying nakereba naranai got nothing to do with showing off, it is in the syllabus, and is what we may end up writing in the written paper. As this thread is created for practising Japanese, I defend myself by saying there is no set guideline for whether I talk casually or formally. It's all for the sake of practising for the exam. That is the whole purpose for this thread, is it not?

On the other hand, I do acknowledge the fact that in reality, ppl would use nakucha... and, i will separate the phrase next time for easy reading, if i don't forget.

 

[Lexicographer]

I'm not saying that if you say it you ARE a showoff. What I'm saying is that the form does not fit with everything else you are using. It's grammatical incongruity. Sorry if my comment offended anyone, but I was just trying to bring a point to common attention. The notes from the marking centre actually say that people overused and misused that construction, and this is exactly what they meant.

 

[mercury]

hmm, can you give an example of an appropriate use and an inappropriate use?

 

[mercury]

oh, referring to my last usage of nakereba narai in the little paragraph I wrote on the previous page. I did mean that we had to (it was compulsory) learn two languages in year 7, no choice, two languages throughout the entire year, then we were allowed to drop one in yr 8. That was at my old school, sghs.

 

[Lexicographer]

You're a girl?

Oh! Some things now make sense.

Anyway, I'll let Takuya give a proper explanation of appropriate use (since I more just know when it's the right level of formality) but I can sympathise with the languages. I did four in year 7.

 

[mercury]

eh? nani? what things made sense? =p yes i am a girl, and i thought you knew, ah wellz.

Well, i actually liked the languages! Wished I could do all french, japanese, chinese and latin! but no choice...

I was just rummaging through a chinese grammar book on Japanese, i realise what Takuya was talking about with the noni, node and everything. Seems Chinese explanation is more explicit

So have you been writing Japanese essays?

 

[Takuya]

Originally posted by Lexicographer
Edited by moderator in favour of brevity

About the Eikaiwa classes, yes I understand the CELTA requirement, however I must often sympathise with those who spend a whole class trying to ask a simple question to their teacher. There are better ways to learn English in Japan, but believe me, I am one who has been to several major schools including NOVA and been thoroughly disappointed. At one time I ended up translating for the teacher, and that is when I left.

The Continuers Course could give students something to think about in 200 hours, or it could give them something functional which they could use and adapt to make themselves close to b. I say the course is poorly structured. It oversimplifies in places whilst in some cases it presents sophisticated language without teaching the stepping stones.

Maybe I shall write a book entitled, "Tactical Japanese" by Takuya Ando.

Nakereba naranai is OK, but such a long overcomplicated way of saying 'have to' is only ever used when one starts saying something involving this structure and then changes their mind.

Nakucha is more snappy and to-the-point. I use it, but I use nakereba naranai almost just as often.

 

[Takuya]

Originally posted by mercury
eh? nani? what things made sense? =p yes i am a girl, and i thought you knew, ah wellz.

Well, i actually liked the languages! Wished I could do all french, japanese, chinese and latin! but no choice...

I was just rummaging through a chinese grammar book on Japanese, i realise what Takuya was talking about with the noni, node and everything. Seems Chinese explanation is more explicit

So have you been writing Japanese essays?

Would you still like me to explain? I can give you an off-the-cuff example, but it's a little tricky to explain... There I go with the cliches. Is that a cliche???

 

[Takuya]

Ooh quick there's some random Samurai film on SBS!

 

[Lexicographer]

Your points are well made, but I do have a few rebuttals.

HOWEVER, now is not the time. After we actually complete the exams, yes?

Takuya, realising you are a new member I'll put this to you here. Please don't quote entire posts just to reply to them. It makes the board a terrible burden to dial-uppers and capped broadbanders. When quoting, try to keep only the relevant material so people know what you are replying to, and don't have to hunt through several lines (or, if quoting me, paragraphs). Thanks

 

[Lexicographer]

Originally posted by Takuya
Ooh quick there's some random Samurai film on SBS!

Eh? That's German!

Originally posted by mercury
eh? nani? what things made sense? =p yes i am a girl, and i thought you knew, ah wellz.

a) your style makes more sense now b) I wasn't sure, since I couldn't hear your voice

 

[mercury]

no it's fine takuya =p you rhelp would be much appreciated.

the difference between nara and tara and the reba form

the usage of noni

and difference between kara and node =p

So how many years have you been in Australia?

 

[mercury]

I see I see... and also, it is alright to use san with guys right? when is sama and kimi used?

And Lex, you do write in paragraphs, i assume you must be very good with english

I kind of agree with Takuya regarding the eikaiwa school coz I recall a Japanese native speaker telling me that my Japanese is better than some of the ppl who teach English in Japan - I didn't really believe her at the time... very nice lady trying to comforting us students

 

[Lexicographer]

I try to write logically, but sadly performance in English has little to do with linguistic ability or prowess. Since I don't work, that's a real shame (as it is reflected in my marks )

 

[mercury]

Just joined the chesskit, thanks to the promotion in your signature..

Our Jap expert appeared to have gone. Oh dear, what about my questions!

 

[mercury]

oops, Japanese expert XD habits...

 

[hurrotisrobbo]

Originally posted by Takuya
No, Anime is in no way near close to daily talk.

'Baka da yo!' and 'Pantsu pantsu pantsu' aren't bound to go down well...

*Anxiously awaits Takuya's reply regarding 'node/kara', et al, cliches or no cliches*


(Edit - does anyone have an opinion on japanese.about.com while I'm at it?)

 

[-X-]

moshi moshi.