japanese only thread! (1 Viewer)

[Lexicographer]

Er... why were you saying "underwear! undearwear! underwear!"?

 

[Lexicographer]

Originally posted by hurrotisrobbo
Edit - does anyone have an opinion on japanese.about.com while I'm at it?

I used to go there quite a lot. I'm not sure how they are now, and for our uses, but it is in my opinion a good source in itself. Very useful for finding Japanese resources as well as various lingual trivia (eg daily kanji or something?). I like it.

 

[-X-]

Originally posted by Lexicographer
Er... why were you saying "underwear! undearwear! underwear!"?

I said that? LOL i got it from the simpsons where this japanese guy answers the phone saying "moshi moshi?". lol

 

[hurrotisrobbo]

Originally posted by -X-
I said that? LOL i got it from the simpsons where this japanese guy answers the phone saying "moshi moshi?". lol

Chigau zo. The previous page ('pantu pantu pantu', or thereabouts).

It's a quote from some miscellaneous anime somewhere.
Can't for the life of me remember where it's from, mind.

 

[Lexicographer]

While it's on the same page, if you go to www.japanese.about.com and click "Fonts" on the side menu you'll get a link to download Microsoft's Japanese Input Method Editor. This is what I (and indeed most MS users) use to type Japanese characters in all microsoft programs (IE, word etc). Much better than the third party word processors because you have the functionality of word.

 

[mle]

we WONT get extra marks for saying pantsu pantsu pantsu?!?!? awww...

Takuya- your english is almost perfect. I wouldn't have noticed anything wrong with it unless you pointed it out (altho it is sorta strange that you use proper capitalisation and punctuation on the net)
I, on the other hand, have very strange english skills, despite being born and raised here by english speaking parents(one english one dutch). But i think english is good like that, you can use cliches and such and it contributes to your way of speaking, like anime character's made up words.

I would also like to know the differences between similar words (or words we've been taught mean the same thing) and we wont get marked down in exams if we use the wrong one will we? coz thatd be their fault... not ours.

i think the extension course is a bit better than the continuers, coz u study a text and issues and everything, but i dont think its really increased my language skills... just taught me how to use them practically. It does make u see the difference between what we're taught and what ppl use tho. I look at Ototake's writing and got WTF?? coz i just can't make it fit the basic structures i have

Hopefully 4 and 1/2 yrs at Uni wil teach me a lil better

 

[karnevil]

Takuya am I wrong here in saying that a solid year of immersion in Japan would benefit someone a million times more than any amount of time spent here studying from a textbook?

Hopefully I'll be in Japan in 2007, as part of the B.Bus / BA in International Studies @ UTS

 

[Lexicographer]

Haha! My year will be better than yours

I plan on doing BA(IntStuds) at UNSW where I can do two languages. Of course, the grand plan involves including this in MBBA/BA(IntStuds) and so I'm pretty messed if that doesn't happen.

I know all about alternatives though, so I'm ok.

 

[Takuya]

Originally posted by karnevil
Takuya am I wrong here in saying that a solid year of immersion in Japan would benefit someone a million times more than any amount of time spent here studying from a textbook?

Hopefully I'll be in Japan in 2007, as part of the B.Bus / BA in International Studies @ UTS

I've heard from other foreigners that immersion in Japan isn't too good because when Japanese people speak to foreigners in Japanese they often talk in very simple language so that the foreigner will understand. I've seen similar when Japanese who don't speak much English come to Australia.

It is helpful to expose yourself to many different, everyday situations in order to learn the language, however your visual appearance as a non-Japanese may get in the way.

I can tell you about a girl I know who's half-Canadian and half-Japanese who grew up speaking French in Canada. She did not start learning Japanese until she was about 8-10 years old or so, and the only one in her family who spoke was her mother. However, unfortunately due to family problems she went to Japan for a year with her mother to study at a normal school. When she arrived there, she admits that her Japanese was not quite up to scratch, and as her appearance is still quite Japanese, people thought that she was having a joke with them. After that she came to Australia, and she can speak Japanese better than I can, and I am someone who has studied until Year 9 in Japanese school, and received very good grades in language class... All she did was speak to her mother and read novels in her spare time. Not to mention, I used to ask her to read certain kanji for me, that is, when we were of more cordial relations.

However, that is besides the point. The point is, she told me that her Japanese language proficiency improved dramatically in that single year in Japan, solely because people saw her as a Japanese and therefore spoke to her in the way they would speak to any other native speaker. However, this unfortunately will not happen for any non-Japanese people trying to learn the language in Japan...

Therefore, I think it still would help to go to Japan, even if you were to just sit around public places listening to other people talking. I am a guy who came to Australia with the "Survival Guide to Conversational English" written on the palm of his hand. I was subject to a lot of baby talk and dumbed down English, even though I thought that I was talking quite well... The same happens for foreigners in Japan. What will help, is if you go to Japan for a short period of time with some set language goals in mind, and have someone there to help you accomplish those in a relaxed manner. Too many people get to Japan and throw out all those different textbook chapters, such as 'ordering at a restaurant', 'buying a train ticket', etc... due to the overwhelming amount of Japanese that is being thrown at them.

However, don't toss your books and just go out trying to pick a conversation with every second person; Take the time to sit down, learn advanced language structures and then test them out to see if they work. Who cares if it's like reciting Shakespeare to the train conductor, it's worthwhile practice. With enough of that, maybe you'll be able to speak Japanese better than I can toss around some clumsy English phrases.

 

[karnevil]

It's kinda insulting to know that you think anyone who's not japanese-looking will only end up speaking "dumbed-down" japanese, to put it in your words. Really trivialises what we're all trying to achieve here. By the way may I ask how you became so good at English? I might sound a little skeptical but I've never EVER met / spoken to a Japanese person who's so good at English without some hint of Japanese 'engrish' in it, no matter how long they've been speaking english / living in an english-speaking country...

 

[karnevil]

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[Lexicographer]

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[Lexicographer]

Originally posted by karnevil
It's kinda insulting to know that you think anyone who's not japanese-looking will only end up speaking "dumbed-down" japanese, to put it in your words. Really trivialises what we're all trying to achieve here.

The problem isn't his opinion though. He is giving a reasonable (and in my experience accurate) account of what actually happens in Japan. I don't think Takuya approves of it or anything, he's just telling you (in the words of Gustav Munck) "what he saw". It's just the way things go. Rather than saying we'll all end up speaking dumbed down Japanese, he's saying that is all the Japanese will speak to us. However, I admit that he neglected to mention that if you speak more complex Japanese to them they will immediately respond with more natural Japanese. They tend to probe for a level that you are comfortable with and understand.

Originally posted by karnevil
By the way may I ask how you became so good at English? I might sound a little skeptical but I've never EVER met / spoken to a Japanese person who's so good at English without some hint of Japanese 'engrish' in it, no matter how long they've been speaking english / living in an english-speaking country...

Not to hammer you or anything on this, but all you're really saying is that you haven't met enough people. The key, I think, is that Takuya arrived in Australia at a young age. Any person can achieve this level of proficiency in such circumstance provided they have the motivation (necessity to learn proper English) and the support (immersion and correction). Having arrived in year 5 means that he already had a solid grasp of Japanese, and was able to keep his grip on the language by talking to his parents. As for English he would have received much tutelage (and hence heavy correction) by his ESL teacher, and later his ordinary English teacher. It is a rather remarkable feat, given the reputation of the Japanese grasp on English, but not a spectacular one.

 

[mle]

Yeah, and since there are so many people in australia of asian appearance (dont anyone dare call me racist) many of which were born here or have lived here most of their lives, ppl would probly speak to him in normal english most of the time. But in japan, when i was there, ppl tried to speak as much english as they could to me. my hos sister (who was extremely advanced at english) got frustrated with my attempts at japanese and ended up speaking english only to me. Hopefully when i go this time I'll be able to show off all my senior structures and maybe (fingers crossed) get some decent conversations going.

 

[karnevil]

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[Takuya]

Originally posted by Lexicographer
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I would not recommend studying just languages as a wise course...

 

[karnevil]

What's wrong with a bit of confidence in my choice of course?

I thought you were good at english? ... surely you'd know there's a difference between confidence and arrogance..


and what Takuya said is right. What do you want to do with just a bachelor of arts? Just a thought, i'm not tryin to sink your battleship

 

[Takuya]

Originally posted by Lexicographer
Blah

I arrived in Year 5 but only for 2 years. I then returned in Form 9 (sorry, counting on my fingers here) forever so I could live with my parents again in Sydney.

I unfortunately did not have the advantage of an ESL teacher in Australia; I went straight into a private school in NSW when I returned to Australia.

However since I was young I was taught some basic English by my parents, who both speak English perfectly... However when I arrived in Australia all I could do was introduce myself and tell people where I was from.

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Now about foreigners in Japan. Do not forget that Japan is not a very multicultural society as Australia is. To Japanese, foreigners really stand out in the crowds, unlike Asians in Australia. Therefore, as foreigners in Japan are few and far between, Japanese will spring upon them to practise their English.

However, although English proficiency in Japan is reasonable, the odd Japanese will have to resort to talking to Japanese-savvy foreigners in a dumbed-down form of Japanese. I've seen them do so even to experienced foreigners who teach the language. There are few who will attempt to engage in a conversation with foreigners as they would do with a fellow native. Once I saw two businessmen, one being a foreigner who was proficient at Japanese, who were obviously good friends, talking together. The Japanese man did not talk to the foreigner as he would have normally spoken to a native friend, even though the foreigner would have been capable of intelligently engaging in such conversation.

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Quoting karnevil;

It's kinda insulting to know that you think anyone who's not japanese-looking will only end up speaking "dumbed-down" japanese, to put it in your words. Really trivialises what we're all trying to achieve here. By the way may I ask how you became so good at English? I might sound a little skeptical but I've never EVER met / spoken to a Japanese person who's so good at English without some hint of Japanese 'engrish' in it, no matter how long they've been speaking english / living in an english-speaking country...

It's 'kinda' insulting to know that you think a Japanese person would not be able to be so good at English without some hint of Japanese 'engrish' in it.

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By the way, Lexicographer, do not be fooled by my elegant forum entries; I spend up to an hour typing each of these, hence the long delays in my responses.

 

[Lexicographer]

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[karnevil]

It's 'kinda' insulting to know that you think a Japanese person would not be able to be so good at English without some hint of Japanese 'engrish' in it.

True, but then on the same token how can you say the same about a non-Japanese person and their apparent lack of ability to speak perfect Japanese?