Legal Advice - Product refunds (2 Viewers)

[Demandred]

Ok, this customer came in the other day, tried to get a ink cartridge for the fax or something

- she didn't know what model
- we didn't know what model she was looking for
- she chose one, we didn't know it was the right model
- we told her that it may not work as she does not know the right model
- we told her that she should go home and confirm the model of the cartridige and that of the machine
- we told her that do not open the plastic seal, otherwise, it cannot be returned and refunded.
- she came back, saying it was the wrong one
- we told her we cannot refund her as she opened the plastic seal

Now this fuckwit husband phones us and tried to abuse us for not refunding. Came short of telling him to fuck off, told him we can't do a thing, good bye.

So... are we right that she cannot get a refund?

 

[Frigid]

yeap.

besides, she's not gonna sue you for the price of an ink cartridge. it's not worth the effort.

 

[Lazarus]

Agreed. No right to refund. You did everything you could.

 

[MiuMiu]

Yeah you told her the refund policy before she bought it, not refund rights.

God I love it when people 'know their rights'.

 

[Demandred]

Thanks Frigid and Laz, just got another phone call, he said that we insinuated that the product was the right one, but I managed to get him to admit that we did tell his wife to properly check the model number and not to open the plastic seal unless it was matching.

If we did insinuate, would this have a significant impact?

Thanks.

edit - Oh, last thing, may I ask the reasoning behind those answers, I am going to say I consulted some experienced law students and they said that...

If its too much of a problem, don't worry about it, I am going to phone up Office of Fair Trading once they open on Monday.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

There is an implied warranty of both fitness for purpose and merchantable quality implied by statute into every consumer sale. You cannot contract out of these warranties and any term of a contract that seeks to do so is void. However, you have not breached either one.

Firstly there is an implied warranty that the product is of merchantable quality (Sale of Goods Act, s19(2)). There is no problem here, as it is the inappropriateness of the product that is the issue.

Secondly, "where the buyer expressly or by implication makes known to the seller the particular purpose for which the goods are required so as to show that the buyer relies on the sellers skill or judgment, and the goods are of a description which it is in the course of the sellers business to supply (whether the seller be the manufacturer or not), there is an implied condition that the goods shall be reasonably fit for such purpose." (Sale of Goods Act, s19(2)). However, she did not rely on your skill or judgment since you did not say what type of cartridge she should buy - rather you stated that she would have to check the model to make sure.

If you want a short conclusive statement to tell them, say that you have not breached the implied warranties under section 19 of the Sale of Goods Act. (The fair trade bodies give little notices with a simple layperson's version of those sections to retailers. You may even have one in your shop).

 

[xeuyrawp]

So... are we right that she cannot get a refund?

You don't have to do anything, even if you have a sign saying you will. Even if you have a sign saying 'we gladly give refunds on opened products', you can refuse sale or refund.

The only real exceptions in retail are the gay retailer's association which has the 'item scanning at a higher price = item free' rule (which is voluntary and usually only at Coles Myer stores), and refunding if something hasn't functioned properly (like MS said). Refusing sale or refund to anybody is fine under any terms. You don't even have to say why; although it's usually better to lie. Despite people thinking that you have to refund if something is broken, you don't have to -- you can say 'well, under company policy, we can attempt to repair the item, and then you can get a refund'. Obviously in your case, you can't say that, but I've said it before when it's clear that 1. the customer was being a dick and 2. I had no ethical or legal obligation to fix what they broke.

But yes, why should she get a refund if she was in the wrong?

 

[MiuMiu]

The only real exceptions in retail are the gay retailer's association which has the 'item scanning at a higher price = item free' rule (which is voluntary and usually only at Coles Myer stores)wrong?

Used only at supermarkets.

 

[xeuyrawp]

Used only at supermarkets.

Nope, it's a requirement of a certain level membership to a retailer's association. I've seen the sign present at many other retail outlets. Just because you've seen it at Coles doesn't mean 'only' anything.

 

[MiuMiu]

Im management at Kmart, and have several friends at Target and Myer. I guarantee you its only the supermarkets within colesmyer that use the policy. Its called the supermarket scanning code of conduct.

EDIT: That was really patronising too, thanks for that.

EDIT #2: From the NSW office of fair trading site on consumer rights

Code of practice for computerised checkout systems in supermarkets

Some supermarkets subscribe to a voluntary code, the Code of Practice for Computerised Checkout Systems in Supermarkets. These supermarkets display notices prominently at the store entry, advising customers that they are code participants. Providing the supermarket is a code participant, when an item is scanned at a price higher than that advertised or displayed on the shelf, a consumer is entitled to receive the first item free and all subsequent items at the lower shelf price. Consumers should check their cash register receipts carefully to ensure that the amount charged was the same as the shelf or advertised price. Where a difference is detected, consumers should request the store comply with the Code. If they refuse, the matter should be raised with the store Manager.

For further information or complaints about the Code, contact the Australian Retailers Association (ARA) on (02) 9290 3766 or visit their website at www.ara.com.au.

Note that the scanning code is an extra entitlement to the provisions of the Fair Trading Act. The scanned price is covered by Section 40 (2) (c) and the shelf price is covered by Section 40 (2) (b). Section 40 (1) states that an item cannot be charged at the higher price if more than one price is displayed.

 

[santaslayer]

Sue them for being stupid.

 

[xeuyrawp]

Im management at Kmart, and have several friends at Target and Myer. I guarantee you its only the supermarkets within colesmyer that use the policy. Its called the supermarket scanning code of conduct.

There are several different associations that a retailer can belong; the ARA is different to a Chamber of Commerce guild which many stores belong.

I'm sure the many Sony outlets that enforce the exact same rule know what they're talking about.

I don't know the name of the guild or the names of the laws off the top of my head (something I've always seen but never thought about), but I'm sure I could take a photo for you.

EDIT: That was really patronising too, thanks for that.

I'm only saying what I've observed, nothing more. It might be a different associative body to the one joined by supermarkets, like I said, I've never payed attention to it. Signage was never a matter for Sony reps, but rather a matter for the legal department which periodically visit Sony outlets; signage is actually a hugely legal matter, as I'm sure you appreciate. I will chase it up for you, though -- although I'm not going to go looking through websites for over 15 minutes, like you have, I'll merely look at the specific sign when I see it.

 

[MiuMiu]

No, I didn't go looking for 15 minutes, your patronising post pissed me off and I was stewing--I decided to go and get the facts for you.

And I can't believe you're still trying to tell me that a brand which I am managing at has a policy which I don't know about!

I am not guessing, I am telling you. And the information isn't from the ARA, its from the NSW Office of Fair trading which outlines in details consumers rights. Feel free to actually go an read it before telling me Im wrong again.

Considering you don't even work for colesmyer, you pretend to know a lot about it.

We would not subscribe to a policy that could potentially lead us having to give an item worth thousands of dollars for free for a simple error with labelling.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

You don't have to do anything, even if you have a sign saying you will. Even if you have a sign saying 'we gladly give refunds on opened products', you can refuse sale or refund.

Not really - the TPA (s52, misleading and deceptive conduct), estoppel & misrepresentation will all nail you to the edge of a cliff by your tongue if you do that.

 

[xeuyrawp]

And I can't believe you're still trying to tell me that a brand which I am managing at has a policy which I don't know about!

When did I say that? I'm not talking about coles myer. I'm talking about Sony stores. Please read my posts more carefully.

Obviously Coles Myer wouldn't be part of this guild, because they're a supermarket and part of that ARA business.

I am not guessing, I am telling you. And the information isn't from the ARA, its from the NSW Office of Fair trading which outlines in details consumers rights. Feel free to actually go an read it before telling me Im wrong again.

I don't believe I said you were guessing, either... I don't believe I was talking about CMG, either...

Considering you don't even work for colesmyer, you pretend to know a lot about it.

I am not, and was never ever talking about Coles Myer. Clear enough for you?

We would not subscribe to a policy that could potentially lead us having to give an item worth thousands of dollars for free for a simple error with labelling.

See above.

 

[MiuMiu]

The only real exceptions in retail are the gay retailer's association which has the 'item scanning at a higher price = item free' rule (which is voluntary and usually only at Coles Myer stores)

Oh sorry, my mistake, you WEREN'T talking about Colesmyer

Obviously Coles Myer wouldn't be part of this guild, because they're a supermarket and part of that ARA business.

ColeMyer is a corporation, not a supermarket. Coles and Bilo are supermarkets.

 

[xeuyrawp]

Not really - the TPA (misleading and deceptive conduct), estoppel & misrepresentation will all nail you to the edge of a cliff by your tongue if you do that.

They might in theory, but in practice they don't. You can say that you have to correctly certify that the product was faulty.

Like I said twice, MS, you would only say so if the customer was being rude to you and is clearly only trying to cause a fuss and get you to bend over a barrel. Not only that, but remember that you would only do such a thing using legalities, which really only function as a last resort, as I'm sure you know.

 

[xeuyrawp]

Oh sorry, my mistake, you WEREN'T talking about Colesmyer

Please read my other posts, as well. As I have said several times, I'm unaware about the different guilds. You've informed me that the Coles Myer one is specific to supermarkets, which I accept. I've also informed you that many stores I've acted as a Sony representative to is also part of a guild (which you seem not to accept...)

As you will note, I was talking about the rule, not the association. The fact that Coles Myer (as I said) abides by the same rule as Sony stores does not mean they are part of the same association as Coles.

I don't believe this is a matter for huge debate, if you'd like, I can just say you're right so you can feel better. I'm really not concerned about this issue, as I'm only expressing what I've observed.

 

[xeuyrawp]

ColeMyer is a corporation, not a supermarket. Coles and Bilo are supermarkets.

My apologies, of course. I will be careful to make the distinction in the future.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

They might in theory, but in practice they don't. You can say that you have to correctly certify that the product was faulty.

Like I said twice, MS, you would only say so if the customer was being rude to you and is clearly only trying to cause a fuss and get you to bend over a barrel. Not only that, but remember that you would only do such a thing using legalities, which really only function as a last resort, as I'm sure you know.

Ah, apologies PwarYuex, I interpreted your "you don't have to do anything" as a legal contention about the rights of consumers and businesses, but you were really making a practical, normative claim.

I agree that certainly large department stores will always bow down to the customer. Many a time as an employee of Myer I have bitterly held my tongue while a layperson comes to the counter and informs me of certain "rights" they have regarding the price of items, or returning things, etc. It is interesting how many customers apparently have a divine mastery of consumer protection law.

Although with smaller stores they aren't so enthusiastic to give in to any old demand. So in those cases disputes are going to come up, and it pays to know your law so that some disgruntled customer, savvy on the topic, doesn't report your business to the FTT or the ACCC. I've certainly done it.