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Liberal/Labor: Whats The MAJOR difference? (1 Viewer)

Sarah

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berry580 said:
Although I'm not a Liberal supporter, but as an economics student, I got to say they've done a quite "good" job. With that momentum, I don't see why would voters swing to Labor unless something dramatic happens (e.g a terror attack).
No i don't think so. In times of uncertainty, ppl will stick to what's familiar to them. Change during a time of a terrorist attack will make ppl feel less secure.

Voters will swing to labour when the 'good times' stall and they see their own needs aren't met by the govt e.g low interest rates, low inflation levels.
 

berry580

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withoutaface said:
Dude you really need to get a hold of the concept of plurals.
Dude you really need to get yourself to the forum's rules page.
Stay on topic.

Also, as a side note, I swear I wrote my last post BEFORE I read this reply of yours.
* No wonder Australia isn't very internationally competitive in the world market * =.=""
 

berry580

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Sarah said:
No i don't think so. In times of uncertainty, ppl will stick to what's familiar to them. Change during a time of a terrorist attack will make ppl feel less secure.

Voters will swing to labour when the 'good times' stall and they see their own needs aren't met by the govt e.g low interest rates, low inflation levels.
Well apparently, that's not the experience from the Madrid bombing.....
The theory is that, should Labor have a policy which keeps the terrorists from attacking Australia again (assuming it happened), then Australians will want the Labor government as they obviously don't want to be attacked again.

Also, Australia has had low inflation and a low interest rate policy for a LONG while, and they managed it with a respectable result. Apparently, it kept them in power instead of kicking them out.
The theory is that, voters are happy with their low interest rates and low inflation policy, since they want their mortgage to be kept low and the bread's price to not rise too quickly :p.
 

withoutaface

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berry580 said:
Dude you really need to get yourself to the forum's rules page.
Stay on topic.

Also, as a side note, I swear I wrote my last post BEFORE I read this reply of yours.
* No wonder Australia isn't very internationally competitive in the world market * =.=""
You do an extremely good job of dodging the topic. I see after at least 2-3 topics establishing that keeping that sig makes you look like a hypocrite you choose to ignore it and keep the sig.
 

Sarah

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berry580 said:
Well apparently, that's not the experience from the Madrid bombing.....
The theory is that, should Labor have a policy which keeps the terrorists from attacking Australia again (assuming it happened), then Australians will want the Labor government as they obviously don't want to be attacked again.

Also, Australia has had low inflation and a low interest rate policy for a LONG while, and they managed it with a respectable result. Apparently, it kept them in power instead of kicking them out.
The theory is that, voters are happy with their low interest rates and low inflation policy, since they want their mortgage to be kept low and the bread's price to not rise too quickly :p.
Dude, look at the USA (yes i know we're not the US but it can be said that we're a peripheral economy to the USA) and the war on terror. Bush still holds govt.

Also, the last election that Beazley ran in. I think it was in 2001? Can't remember but there was the whole protecting Australia from illegal immigrants trying to 'jump the cue' and also Sept 11.

And yeh, with ur point on low inflation and low interst rates, that's what i mentioned. Voters needs being those examples. When those examples aren't met, voters will swing to labour under the promises by labour that they will meet these needs
 

berry580

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withoutaface said:
You do an extremely good job of dodging the topic. I see after at least 2-3 topics establishing that keeping that sig makes you look like a hypocrite you choose to ignore it and keep the sig.
You do a extremel good job in going off the topic.
I'm a hypocrite in what?
The Americans made a mistake, they took advantage of their power and invaded Iraq.
I made a slight grammatical mistake, but you violated the forum's rule and I didn't even use my power to the full and report you to a moderator.

Ignoring it is my choice, it won't affect anyone.
The American's ignorant is their choice and it WILL affect many people, including their people's live.
 
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withoutaface

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You said before that noone can know who sold what to Iraq.

You're sig says you're 100% sure that America sold Iraq the WMD's.

By contradiction these cannot both be true, you're a hypocrite, remove the sig.
 

berry580

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withoutaface said:
You said before that noone can know who sold what to Iraq.

You're sig says you're 100% sure that America sold Iraq the WMD's.

By contradiction these cannot both be true, you're a hypocrite, remove the sig.
First of all, yes I did say no one can know who sold what to Iraq, and now, I'll also want to add- "except high ranking officials".
But my signature does NOT directly OR indirectly claim America sold specifically weapons of mass destruction to Iraq. In fact, does it even specify America and/or Iraq at all?
What linked my sig. to America, why are Americans so sensitive? But you're not even an American....... unless you're an "American wannabe". So is arrogance really THAT contagious?

So inconclusion, yes I said before that no one can know who sold what to Iraq. But no, I NEVERspecify that I'm 100% sure that America sold Iraq WMD's. In fact, I never even specifed any country, and let alone what was specifically sold. So to put it simple, you lied, and you wrongly accused me and the conclusion you drew out is simply WRONG.

Should whoever be the hypocrites, it'll be the one's who constantly talk about "world peace", yet is also the one who aggressively direct and indirectly support warfare being prolonged.
 

zahid

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berry580 said:
Should whoever be the hypocrites, it'll be the one's who constantly talk about "world peace", yet is also the one who aggressively direct and indirectly support warfare being prolonged.
Well that certainly makes sense. Hey withoutaface if you wanna see how much the iraq war is costing click here.
http://costofwar.com/
 

withoutaface

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Looks like Mike Moore, only more amateurish.

EDIT: I've watched half of it, and I'm going to make this clear for the final time:

I did not support a war of disarmament, I supported a war of liberation, so shut the fuck up about WMD's, because I do not care.
 
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zahid

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yes and here are the names of all those CIA agents, one of them being the advisor to George Bush Senior back in the day.....

THE EXPERTS


David Albright

David Albright is a physicist, nuclear weapons expert, and former weapons inspector with the IAEA Action team. Albright served on the Department of Energy Openess Advisory Panel. Currently Albright is the President of the Institute for Science and International Security. He holds a Masters of Science in physics from Indiana University and a Masters of Science in Mathematics from Wright State University.

Robert Baer

Robert Baer is a former CIA operative who served for twenty-five years in Iraq and Lebanon. In 1998 the CIA awarded him the Career Intelligence Medal. Baer recently wrote and published, “Sleeping with the Devil: How Washington Sold It's Soul for Saudi Crude”. Baer's earlier memoir, "See No Evil: The True Story of a Foot Soldier in the CIA's War on Terrorism," is currently being developed as a motion picture by Oscar-winning filmmaker Steven Soderbergh and actor/producer George Clooney.

Milt Bearden

Milt Bearden rose through the ranks of the CIA to become on of the agency's most highly decorated operations officers in its Senior Service. He retired from the CIA after a thirty-year career. Bearden headed up the CIA's Soviet/Eastern European division as the Soviet Union was coming undone. He was the CIA station chief in Pakistan and was responsible for that agency's covert action program in support of the Afghan resistance to the Soviet-supported government. Bearden served in the Air Force before joining the CIA. Bearden recently co-authored the book, "Main Enemy: The Inside Story of the CIA's Final Showdown with the KGB."

Rand Beers

Rand Beers is a former Special Assistant to President Bush and Senior Director for combating terrorism. Beers is a 30 year-plus intelligence veteran who has held various positions in the State Department's Bureau of Political Military Affairs. Additionally, he has served three times on the National Security Council staff and was Deputy Political Advisor to the Supreme Allied Commander, Europe. Beers resigned in March of 2003, five days before the start of the Iraq War, and is currently the National Security Advisor for John Kerry's campaign. Beers received a BA from Dartmouth and an MA from the University of Michigan.

Bill Christison

Bill Christison worked for the Central Intelligence Agency for over 28 years. He ended his CIA career as the Director of the Office of Regional and Political Analysis, an office of over 200 experts on all nations and global problems of the world.

David Corn

Washington editor of the Nation magazine and a Fox News Channel contributor. He has written for the Washington Post, the New York Times, Harper's, The New Republic, Mother Jones, Washington Monthly, Slate, Salon and many other publications. He has long been a political commentator on television and radio. He is the author of the novel "Deep Background," and the biography "Blond Ghost: Ted Shackley and the CIA's Crusade."

Philip Coyle

Philip Coyle, assistant secretary of defense and director of operational test and evaluation at the Pentagon from 1994 to 2001. He is currently a senior adviser to the Center for Defense Information in Washington, D.C.

John Dean

John Dean is most famously known as Richard Nixon's White House lawyer for the thousand days during the Watergate scandal. He is currently a respected legal and political analyst. His analysis is from the point of view of someone who has been inside. John Dean currently works as a writer, lecturer and private investment banker. He recounted his days in the Nixon White House in two books, “Blind Ambition” (1976) and “Lost Honor” (1982). He recently published “Worse Than Watergate: The Secret Presidency of George W. Bush”.


Patrick Eddington

Patrick Eddington is a former CIA imagery analyst, and is currently a private researcher, author, and international security consultant. Eddington resigned in 1996 after working on a book (“Gassed in the Gulf”) that exposed the gulf war syndrome. During his tenure at the CIA, his analytical assignments included monitoring the break up of the former Soviet Union; providing military assessments to policy makers on Iraqi and Iranian conventional forces and coordinating the CIA's military targeting support to NATO during Operation Deliberate Force in Bosnia in '95. Currently, Eddington serves as a lobbyist for the American Academy of Ophthalmology. Eddington's opinion pieces have appeared in a number of publications, including the Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, Washington Times, Fort Worth Star-Telegram, and the Army Times, among others. Eddington is a frequent commentator on national security issues for the Fox News Channel, MSNBC, SKYNews, CNN, and other domestic and international television networks.

Chas Freeman

Former Ambassador to Saudi Arabia, Chas Freeman is currently the President of the Middle East Policy Council and Chairman of Projects International, Inc., a Washington D. C. - based business development firm. He previously served as Assistant Secretary of Defense and earned the highest DOD public service awards for his role in designing a NATO-centered post Cold War European security system and in re-establishing defense and military relations with China. Freeman earned a BA from Yale University and a JD from Harvard Law School.

Graham Fuller

As the former Vice Chairman of the National Intelligence Council at the CIA, he served 20 years in the Foreign Service mostly in the Muslim world. After leaving government he served as Senior Political Scientist at RAND for twelve years where his work focused on the Middle East, Central Asia, South and Southeast Asia. He is currently an independent writer, analyst and consultant. He received his BA and MA at Harvard University in Russian and Middle Eastern Studies.

Mel Goodman

Mel Goodman is a professor of International Security at the National War College and a Senior Fellow at the Center for International Policy. From 1966-1986 he was a senior CIA soviet analyst. In 1991 he was one of three former CIA officials to testify before the Senate against the nomination of Robert Gates as director of central intelligence on grounds that he had slanted intelligence to suit policy. Currently, Goodman is co-author of the recently-published “Bush League Diplomacy: How the Neoconservatives are Putting the World at Risk.” He will be joining the Center for International Policy in the summer to lead their Intelligence Reform Project.

Larry C. Johnson

Larry C. Johnson worked with the U.S. State Department's Office of Counter Terrorism from 1989-1993, and prior to that with the Central Intelligence Agency. Mr. Johnson has analyzed terrorist incidents for a variety of media including the Jim Lehrer News Hour, CNN and the BBC, and has authored several articles for publications. He has lectured on terrorism and aviation security around the world, and represented the U.S. Government at the July 1996 OSCE Terrorism Conference in Vienna, Austria. Mr. Johnson is a member of the American Society for Industrial Security.

Dr. David Kay

In June 2003, President Bush directed that the hunt for Iraqi weapons of mass destruction be transferred to the Central Intelligence Agency who appointed Dr. David Kay to lead that search and direct the activities of the 1,400 members Iraq Survey Group. In January 2004 having concluded that there had been no stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq at the time of the war, Dr. Kay reported that conclusion and resigned his position. Currently, he is a Senior Fellow at the Potomac Institute for Policy Studies with a concentration on counter-terrorism and weapons proliferation. He also serves as an analyst for NBC and MSNBC and appears frequently as a commentator on proliferation and terrorism issues.

John Brady Kiesling

Brady Kiesling was a member of Bush's Foreign Service Corps and Political Counselor to the American Embassy in Greece. Kiesling has been a diplomat for 20 years, a civil servant to four Presidents. He was the first diplomat to resign in a symbolic move to protest the administration's contempt for diplomacy. Kiesling spent last fall as a visiting fellow in the Hellenic Studies Program at Princeton University and speaking at various universities and conferences.

Karen Kwiatkowski

Karen Kwiatkowski, a specialist on the Middle East and a recently retired USAF lieutenant colonel, who spent her final four and a half years in uniform working at the Pentagon, worked from May 2002 through February 2003 in the office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Policy, Near East/South Asia and Special Plans at the Department of Defense. In the March 10, 2004, online edition of Salon, Karen Kwiatkowski's 4-page article, “The New Pentagon Papers” revealed how Defense Department extremists suppressed information and twisted the truth to drive the country to war.

Patrick Lang

Patrick Lang is a strategic military and political intelligence analyst. As an independent consultant he is an expert trainer of U.S. and other personnel in requirements of operations in Muslim countries. From 1979 to 1985 he served as the senior U.S. military officer in the embassy in Saudi Arabia and Yemen. From 1985 to 1992 Lang was the Defense Intelligence Officer for the Middle East, South Asia and Terrorism. Lang served as a Commissioned Officer in the U.S. Army and earned a BA in English at Virginia Military Institute.

Dr. David C. MacMichael

David MacMichael is a former CIA Analyst who started The Association of National Security Alumni. ANSA is an organization that seeks to expose and curtail covert actions because they “are counterproductive and damaging to the national interest of the United States, inimical to the operation of an effective national intelligence system, corruptive of civil liberties... and they contradict the principles of democracy, national self-determination and international law to which the United States is publicly committed.” David MacMichael resigned from the CIA rather than falsify his reports for political reasons. MacMichael graduated with an MA and Ph.D. in History from the University of Oregon.

Ray McGovern

Ray McGovern was a CIA analyst from 1964 to 1990, and regularly reported to the vice president and senior policy-makers on the President's Daily Brief from 1981 to 1985. McGovern is a member of the steering group of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS) which is a non-partisan group of retired intelligence professionals who believe that the Bush Administration lied about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and inappropriately pressured the CIA to "cook the books" on the matter. McGovern is now co-director of the Servant Leadership School, an inner-city outreach ministry in Washington.

Scott Ritter

Scott Ritter, a former marine captain from a military family, was the UN's top weapons inspector in Iraq until 1998. During the first Gulf War Ritter served as a ballistic missile expert under General Schwarzkopf and joined UNSCOM in 1991. Ritter later resigned claiming President Clinton was too easy on Sadaam. Before the recent Iraq invasion however, Ritter said the dictator didn't seem to have weapons of mass destruction and that trying to oust Hussein would be "very dangerous."

The Rt Honorable Clare Short

Clare Short recently resigned her position as Tony Blair's secretary for international development because Blair did not support a UN coalition to rebuild Iraq. She entered the House of Commons in 1983 as the Member of Parliament (MP) for the Midlands constituency of Birmingham Ladywood, which she has held since then. From 1996 until the 1997 General Election she was Opposition spokesperson on overseas development. She was Shadow Minister for women from 1993 to 1995 and Shadow Secretary of State for Transport from 1995 to 1996. She has been Opposition spokesperson on environment protection, social security and employment. A member of the Home Affairs Select Committee from 1983 until 1985, she was Chair of the All-Party Group on Race Relations from 1985 to 1986, Member of the National Executive Committee (NEC) of the Labour Party since 1988, Chair of the NEC Women's Committee from 1993 to 1996 and Chair of the NEC International Committee since 1996.

Stansfield Turner

Professor Turner is a Senior Research Scholar at the Center for International and Security Studies at Maryland. He served as Director of Central Intelligence from 1977-1981. As such, he headed both the Intelligence Community (composed of all of the foreign intelligence agencies of the United States) and the Central Intelligence Agency. He was responsible for developing new procedures for closer oversight of the Intelligence Community by Congress and the White House, led the Intelligence Community in adapting to a new era of real-time photographic satellites and instituted major management reform at the CIA. Previously as an Admiral in the U.S. Navy he served as commander of the U.S. Second Fleet and NATO Striking Fleet Atlantic, and as the commander-in-chief of NATO's Southern Flank. Turner has published four books, "Secrecy and Democracy" (1985), "Terrorism and Democracy" (1991), "Caging the Nuclear Genies" (1997), and "Caging the Genies: A Workable Plan for Nuclear, Chemical and Biological Weapons" (1998).

The Honorable Henry Waxman

Henry A. Waxman represents California's 30th Congressional District. Since 1997, Rep. Waxman has served as ranking member of the Government Reform Committee, the principal investigative committee in the House. Rep. Waxman recently sent a letter to National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice asking her to answer questions about the extent of her knowledge of Iraq nuclear claims, whether there were White House efforts to mislead the public, and how the discredited uranium claim got into the NIE. Waxman holds a bachelor's degree in political science from UCLA and a J.D. from the UCLA Law School.

Thomas E. White

Thomas E. White became the 18th Secretary of the Army on May 31, 2001, after nomination to that post by President Bush and confirmation by the United States Senate. He served in the US Army for 23 years from 1967-2000 and retired as a brigadier general. After a series of high-profile clashes with Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz over Iraq planning and army modernization issues, White resigned from his post as army secretary in early 2003. During his tenure, White was also hounded by allegations regarding his role in the Enron debacle. But despite being questioned by Congress, White was never charged. White has continued his criticism of Defense Department decision-making vis-*-vis Iraq, arguing in a 2003 book entitled "Reconstructing Eden."

Joseph C. Wilson

Joe Wilson is the former Deputy Chief of Mission at the U.S. Embassy in Iraq. More recently, Wilson served as the Special Assistant to the President and Senior Director for African Affairs at the National Security Council. At the behest of Vice President Cheney, Wilson went to Niger to determine the credibility of documents claiming that Sadaam Hussein had purchased "yellow cake" uranium from that country. Wilson debunked the claims as false yet the accusation appeared in President Bush's State of the Union address. Wilson claims the White House deliberately leaked his wife's identity as a covert CIA operative after he wrote an article for the NY Times revealing that the Niger-uranium claims made by the White House were false. Wilson is currently on tour for his recently published New York Times best-selling book, "The Politics of Truth: Inside the Lies That led to War and Betrayed My Wife's CIA Identity."

Colonel Mary Ann Wright

Colonel Mary Ann Wright is the former Ambassador to Mongolia who resigned on the eve of the war with Iraq. Ms. Wright was a diplomat for fifteen years and the Deputy Chief of Mission in the U.S. Embassies in Sierra Leone, Micronesia, and Afghanistan as part of the rebuilding team after the recent war. She has also had assignments in Somalia, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Grenada and Nicaragua. Wright continues to speak out through TV, radio and newspaper interviews against the war in Iraq and other Bush administration policies including the lack of concern and effort to push the peace process along between the Israeli and Palestinians.

Peter Zimmerman

Peter Zimmerman served as the Chief Scientist of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee from August 2001 until January 2003. Before assuming his duties in the U.S. Senate, he was a senior fellow in arms control and verification at the Center for Strategic and International Studies and a former technical adviser to the U.S. delegation to the START talks.
 

loquasagacious

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You could at least quote the source and actually make a point rather than let the quote do it.....
 

zahid

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addymac said:
You could at least quote the source and actually make a point rather than let the quote do it.....
ur speaking out of context...it was ment for waf.
 

zahid

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withoutaface said:
Looks like Mike Moore, only more amateurish.

EDIT: I've watched half of it, and I'm going to make this clear for the final time:

I did not support a war of disarmament, I supported a war of liberation, so shut the fuck up about WMD's, because I do not care.
WOW finally coming out of the Closet are we??
 

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zahid said:
WOW finally coming out of the Closet are we??
:confused:

I've always said I've supported the war, but I don't think I've said that I support Bush's reasons specifically.
 

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withoutaface said:
$8000 is not a high price for the liberation of one human life, Zahid.
No, its not.
But how about look it "this" way- in one incident, an America militant assaulted a town/village in Iraq because the Americans claimed to search for "terrorists". In the process, an Iraqi civilian was shot, and after, this Iraqi civilian was murdered by an American.
This was made public, and the US soldier who killed this civilian was pleaded "innocent" as he justified it was to "free him from pain".

So $8000 + is cheap to liberate one human life, what about $1 to eliminate a human life?
Remember an incident in America where a women is in a coma and is declared "brain dead", yet it created an "outcry" in America when her husband wanted her to be killed while her parents opposed?
So killing a brain dead women who's in a coma for decades would create an "outcry" in America, but murdering a shot man who is still alive would create a "no American gives a d@mn"?
So why the difference? Is it because that man is an Iraqi while that woman is an American?

Is that called discrimination, or should it be called hypocrisy?
 

loquasagacious

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Not if you believe that both the soldier and the husband of Teri Schiavio were justified in their actions.....
 

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withoutaface said:
I did not support a war of disarmament, I supported a war of liberation, so shut the fuck up about WMD's, because I do not care.
withoutaface said:
I've always said I've supported the war, but I don't think I've said that I support Bush's reasons specifically.

That's a bit rich given that, in the sphere of public relations, the war of liberation (however valid it may be) was just a fallback justification for the removal of Suddam. The issue of poor/misinterpreted intelligence shouldn't just be sidelined in such a manner, and the fact remains that the war was launched on false pretences (well, maybe it was a well-intentioned mistake). No matter your own stance, you cannot just dismiss the notion of WMDs.
 
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