aMUSEd1977 said:
Your comment did not address the issue I raised, which was apprenticeships falling through. There is no contention to the fact that there are many alternative entry options into university, and it seems that you have avoided the point of the statement you quoted, and that was that what happens to those students who don't complete (or even start) their apprenticeship? If they aren't at TAFE, they won't be getting the TAFE qualifications, and credit for subjects completed.
The alternative to university is TAFE/private colleges. If their apprenticeship fell through, I seriously don't know why they can't do another course or something. Same applies to uni. Cadetships can fall through. Big fucking deal. You take risks, learn from mistakes, and start over.
If they can't balance those things during the HSC, they'll always struggle to do it throughout life. Balancing work and home is a life skill that comes with the HSC. Teachers during the final years of school act in a way that is more parallel to a boss, rather than a dictator. You are given you work, told to go and do it, but provide punishment if you don't do it. There is no contention that this is provides less freedom than university, but it is more than you get in previous years of high school. It is a gradual progression. That is, the older you get, the more responsibility for your own actions you get. No one is arguing that university doesn't provide more freedom. I'm sure you will find this fact is common knowledge.
These "life skills" can be aquired outside of the classroom, I'm sure you'll agree. I know myself and my situation. I've done the right thing by doing Pathways and deferring my units, etc. This gives me more time to think, plan, etc. All I'm saying is that if you know what you want - go for it. If you don't, then take your time. Clearly I'm not just preaching here but leading by example.
The older you get, the more responsibilities you'll take on, regardless of whether or not you attend school.
It's the same page, three times over. No one has made any claim that to get into a blue collar job, you will always need a university degree.
It's not about a university degree. It's about the extent of your
compulsory education.
And to William: male maturity is reached at the age of 30. So that clearly is a ridiculous argument unless you'd like to stay in school 'til then.
I didn't mean to get political, but this is from another discussion:
Under a capitalist system, there will never be an educational revolution. Educational reform is all bullcrap. Because it's not about the workers. Because competition exists and people don't work together to form a society, but rather, work against each other in the hopes of profits. Tradespeople hardly need to be literate. After some years, their job becomes something they do automatically. It comes with experience and little or no concentration and considerations need to go into that process - in fact, there is no thought-to-action process, it is straight to action - to manufacturing and constructing. The system does not support subbantials - if workers were given half pay for 6-12months every 3 years to travel overseas, study, and meet people, they could broaden their perspective and become more involved in the decision-making process and become citizens of the world. Workers are not encouraged to complete their education. It's the complete opposite - youth are told to leave school and pick up an apprenticeship/traineeship or join the defence forces. As important as education, knowledge, and learning is, in a capitalist system it is a crisis and it is never going to undergo any kind of revolution (sorry, Rudd) and so instead of wasting 2 years studying things which are of no value after school (unless you're going to be a literary critic, I don't see how English etc is going to help you) and "life skills" are aquired outside of the classroom - they are LIFE skills, not EDUCATIONAL skills. We are not educated, we are indoctrinated. Many times I have sat in class thinking to myself "Yeah, right, and Santa Claus exists". Many times I have challenged teachers who became furious instead of encouraging myself and others to think for ourselves. Many times I have received poor grades because my work was "too advanced for my year" and "couldn't possibly be mine". We must memorise and then regurgitate everything they feed us. I cannot remember the last time English was taught as a
language. I do not remember studying basic, simple grammar let alone complex and exceptionally well constructed writing. With words come power. We are not taught how to use these words. Our vocabulary lists after primary "education" are non-existant. I in all honesty never memorised the times tables. And I got through fine. I did Advanced Maths in my junior years and 2u math in year 11. But come Factorising and I can't remember a single thing so the road ended there and I dropped down to General Mathematics. After some time, finally realising that I don't know what 3x9 etc is and I've made it this far - why do I need to continue doing math? Are all of those things going to help me in the future? Survivial insticts take over and the obvious answer is no. We are not taught how to contribute to society, how to work together and achieve together. Educational revolutionaries are a lovely ideal, but ideals that aren't going to work. You have to be realistic. First you (both/either) say that people should be able to leave then you say no, they should stay in school. Make up your minds. But in the end, whether they start their apprenticeship now or 2 years later there is always the chance that their apprenticeship may "fall through" and their "HSC" will not be of any value to them if they want to go to university without going through other processes (unitest or articulation, etc). This is because (again, this is in regards to what I physically see around me, I do not intend on a degree in statistics simply for your pleasure) people who have set their minds on an apprenticeship after school will either not qualify for a UAI because they include BE courses etc. or they will get a UAI of 30 because they thought they wouldn't need it and didn't take school seriously. A lot of my friends are in this situation. They all plan on TAFE and they aren't going to get UAIs. Not to mention they're practically failing everything. So their HSC in this case is just an accessory. They might repeat the HSC, they might just go to TAFE. Who knows? But Pathways also exists so if they had to take 10 units (5x2u subjects), they could just do one subject for the HSC examinations every year for 5 years. They get ahead with their apprenticeship and receive formal qualifications and they also eventually get their HSC and a UAI for "back-up". They might decide after receiving their qualifications (3 or 4 years?), they'll go ahead and do all their remaining units for the HSC.
The point is, there are lots of options. But with an apprenticeship, you get real-life, on-site training and experience plus you get to earn some money whilst you study - not much different from a cadetship, except you don't get a Bachelor of Carpenting majoring in Organic Woods.
The sad truth is that you don't need to be smart or educated or even literate* to be a blue-collar worker. I do not mean this in a degrading sense, but in a sense that it's a shame there won't be anything done about it.
*If you take this "exaggeration"
literally you are less intelligent than the next-door neighbour's cat.
