Michael Moore's Open Letter To George Bush (1 Viewer)

[jennylim]

another post to say...

answer the fucking question!!!

 

[supercharged]

just making a double post to point out to supercharged that his post is riddled with fallacies. i mean, we all knew that already, but it doesn't seem to have hit home.

for example: comparing two isolated events through images and without substantial analysis of the varying situations is not a highly effective way of making an assessment about the general moral fibre of each nationality. he appears to think that inference is really fantastic, and that he is a genius for picking it up.

or the fact that he appears to think that one incident is enough for him to make a blanket judgment about americans in general: oh, they are morally degenerate scum who all wish to rape, pillage, kill and burn, but simply don't have enough of a chance. bullshit. there isn't sufficient data to make such a comment.

you only need one decent american to disprove his fucking retarded argument.

you've got it the wrong way round, supercharged: it's not up to us to find other examples of degeneration into lawlessness to show that americans are similar people to everyone else in the world. it's up to YOU to prove that every american is like this in order to substantiate the claims made through your flimsy inferences. YOU'RE the one making the stupid generalisations...YOU'RE the one that should back them up. not vice versa.



pwn3d.

LOL and you think my arguement rests solely on the flood relief photos?
What about those BBC news reports posted before you?

You're the one saying what happened in America is normal behaviour for people after natural disasters, so why hasn't it happened elsewhere? Why don't YOU prove your stupid generalisation? Armed gangs shooting & raping. Is this Sierra Leone? OMG it's America! pwned

 

[jennylim]

LOL and you think my arguement rests solely on the flood relief photos?
What about those BBC news reports posted before you?

You're the one saying what happened in America is normal behaviour for people after natural disasters, so why hasn't it happened elsewhere? Why don't YOU prove your stupid generalisation? Armed gangs shooting & raping. Is this Sierra Leone? OMG it's America! pwned

absolutely not. the BBC reports are all fine. i accept that Japan can deal with natural disasters. heck, they live on a fucking fault line, if they degenerated into chaos each time a disaster happened, they wouldn't exist as a country.

no, i'm not saying that it's normal behaviour. i'm saying that human nature in general isn't particularly nice. i'm saying that you can't make blanket generalisations about a group of people in general based on a single incident. it's disgusting and sick.

what if someone said: OMFG china allows citizens to be executed without sufficient evidence, that means everyone in china must be bloodthirsty cruel people without a sense of justice!!! armed gangs? my god, sounds like bankstown and cabramatta to me...where there are...omg...ASIAN PEOPLE!!!! you're the one with the fucking illogical case, and the unsupportable position. you're the one saying that americans are all degenerate people because of this one incident in one city in one state after one disaster. america has dealt with previous disasters (eg earthquakes in california...another fault line) without this hoo-ha. this happens once, and dickheads like you decide to make judgments on the morals of all americans. wtf is your problem?

i suggest you back down from your point of view, for everyone's peace of mind. shut up and get off your soapbox. unless you haven't noticed, you haven't pwned anything because you have failed to convince one single person on this forum.

 

[supercharged]

Welcome to the United Fruitcakes of America:

Relief workers confront 'urban warfare'
Violence disrupts evacuation, rescue efforts in New Orleans

Friday, September 2, 2005 Posted: 0336 GMT (1136 HKT)

NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- Violence disrupted relief efforts Thursday in New Orleans as authorities rescued desperate residents still trapped in the flooded city and tried to evacuate thousands of others living among corpses and human waste.

Federal Emergency Management Agency Director Michael Brown said his agency was attempting to work "under conditions of urban warfare."

Police snipers were stationed on the roof of their precinct, trying to protect it from armed miscreants roaming seemingly at will.

Officers warned a CNN crew to stay off the streets because of escalating danger, and cautioned others about attempted shootings and rapes by groups of young men.

"This is a desperate SOS," New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin said in a statement Thursday afternoon, with thousands of people stranded at the city's convention center with no food, water or electricity -- and fading hope. (See video on the desperate conditions -- 4:36 )

Residents expressed growing frustration with the disorder evident on the streets, raising questions about the coordination and timeliness of relief efforts.

"Why is no one in charge?" asked one frustrated evacuee at the convention center. "I find it hard to believe."

Government officials insisted they were putting forth their best efforts and pleaded for patience, saying further help was on the way.

One displaced resident at the Louisiana Superdome issued a warning to authorities who may be headed to the stadium, where up to 30,000 people sought refuge after Monday's Hurricane Katrina and now await evacuation to Texas by bus.

"Please don't send the National Guard," Raymond Cooper told CNN by telephone. "Send someone with a bullhorn outside the place that can talk to these people first."

He described scenes of lawlessness and desperation, with people simply dragging corpses into corners.

"They have quite a few people running around here with guns," he said. "You got these young teenage boys running around up here raping these girls."

Elsewhere, groups of armed men wandered the streets, buildings smoldered and people picked through stores for what they could find.

Charity Hospital, one of several facilities attempting to evacuate patients, was forced to halt the effort after coming under sniper fire. (Full story)

Recovery efforts also continued Thursday in Mississippi, where Katrina smashed entire neighborhoods and killed at least 185 people.

"We got hit by the worst natural disaster in the history of the United States," Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour told CNN Thursday.

'Thousands' dead
Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco gave the grim news that "thousands" of people died in the hurricane and its aftermath in New Orleans and surrounding parishes, though she said no official count had been compiled.

Brown said those who ignored the city's mandatory evacuation order bore some responsibility.

"I think the death toll may go into the thousands and, unfortunately, that's going to be attributable a lot to people who did not heed the advance warnings," he told CNN. (Full story)

Stranded people remained in buildings, on roofs, in the backs of trucks or gathered in large groups on higher ground, with little knowledge of when -- or if -- help would come.

Despite the deteriorating conditions in the city, hurricane survivors from neighboring Plaquemines Parish have started streaming into the city, according to Nagin.

"We are overwhelmed and out of resources, but we welcome them with open arms and will figure this out together," the mayor said in a written statement.

Police officers told CNN that some of their fellow officers had simply stopped showing up for duty, cutting manpower by 20 percent or more in some precincts.

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said Thursday that 4,200 National Guard troops trained as military police will be deployed in New Orleans over the next three days, which he said would quadruple the law enforcement presence in the city.

Pentagon officials said the first contingent of 100 military police officers would arrive at Louis Armstrong International Airport at 10 p.m. (11 p.m. ET) -- combat-ready for immediate deployment in New Orleans.

'Unsanitary and unsafe'
Blanco said Thursday she has requested the mobilization of 40,000 National Guard troops to restore order and assist in relief efforts.

A humanitarian catastrophe unfolded at the convention center, where thousands of increasingly frustrated people waited for help amid dead bodies, feces and garbage.

Numerous bodies could be seen, both inside and outside the facility, and one man died of a seizure while a CNN crew was at the scene.

A National Guard helicopter dropped food and water Thursday afternoon, although the amount was far short of enough to meet the needs of the throngs that had gathered.

Nagin advised those gathered at the center to march over the Crescent City Connection bridge to the west bank of the Mississippi River to find relief in neighboring Jefferson Parish.

"The convention center is unsanitary and unsafe, and we are running out of supplies," said Nagin, adding that officials did not expect to have enough buses for evacuations.

Brown told CNN Thursday evening that federal officials only found out about the convention center crisis earlier in the day, and that he had since directed that "all available resources" be made available there.

Boat rescue teams looking for Katrina survivors told CNN they had been ordered to stand down Thursday by FEMA officials concerned about security.

However, FEMA issued a statement from Washington denying it had suspended operations, though the agency conceded there had been "isolated incidents where security has become an issue."

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said that the Coast Guard has rescued about 3,000 people from flooded areas in New Orleans and the surrounding parishes.

At the city's airport, a field hospital set up by FEMA was "overwhelmed" with patients, a medical team commander said.

Equipment normally used to move luggage was instead ferrying patients to a treatment center and to planes and buses for evacuation.

"I do not have the words in my vocabulary to describe what is happening here," said Ozro Henderson. "'Catastrophe' and 'disaster' don't explain it."

Outside the Superdome, throngs of people waiting for a bus ride to Texas completely covered an outside plaza, where they waited in the heat and rain.

Buses ferried displaced residents to Houston's Astrodome, which will serve as a shelter until FEMA can come up with more permanent housing.

"We're finding more and more people coming out of the woodwork," Brown said. "They're appearing in places we didn't know they existed."

Blanco said more school buses would be brought in from across Louisiana to increase the pace of the evacuation.

The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers said it expected to complete the sealing off of the 17th Street Canal, where a flood-control levee breached. (Recovery efforts)

Other developments

In Washington, the Senate convened in special session Thursday night and approved a $10.5 billion disaster relief request from the Bush administration. The House is expected to do the same when it takes up the matter Friday. (Full story)


Gasoline prices spiked as high as $5 a gallon in some areas Thursday as consumers fearing a gas shortage raced to the pumps. The runup in prices prompted Bush to warn against gouging and to encourage Americans to conserve. (Full story)

CNN's Chris Lawrence and Ed Lavandera contributed to this report.

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katrina.impact/index.html

 

[jennylim]

you continue to evade the issue. well done dickhead. i rest my case.

 

[supercharged]

no, i'm not saying that it's normal behaviour. i'm saying that human nature in general isn't particularly nice. i'm saying that you can't make blanket generalisations about a group of people in general based on a single incident. it's disgusting and sick.

Ok fine, I'll wait for the next natural disaster to hit America before I comment about America in general...however for New Orleans being full of lawless scumbags, then that has already been proven.

 

[jennylim]

Ok fine, I'll wait for the next natural disaster to hit America before I comment again...

no...no, i think what you need to do is wait for a natural disaster that decimates THE WHOLE COUNTRY, affects every one of the 200 million residents, and causes each one of these 200 million to go on a raping, killing and looting rampage and then compare it to a natural disaster that decimates all of china where each of the one billion residents behaves with calm, decorum and general goodwill to one another before you make inferences and claims like you are making at present (ie that all americans are morally bankrupt and worse than every other race). that would be data that convinces me. nothing short of that will do.

do you understand what i am saying, or am i too logical for you?

 

[Iron]

This is stupid and boring.
On another note, survivors of many natural disasters, like cyclone tracy, often recount how it seemed like the entire world had been destroyed - it's hard to picture the magnonimity of having everything you once knew destroyed - without communications and clear thinking, what's to say that the whole world hasnt been ruined? It would cause anyone to get desporate and go mad.

Without the urban reassurances of a major city like NO - pick up the phone and you hear a ring tone - turn a tap, and you get water - flick a switch and you get light - dial 911 and you get help - without these basic reassurances, it was inevitable that things went hairy.

 

[jennylim]

double post to add that i am perfectly fine with attacking the way in which the US government has dealt with this disaster. it was shoddy from the beginning, reeked of racism and discrimination and was just generally pathetic for the most powerful country on earth.

in fact, resentment at the fact that they live in the most powerful and richest country on earth and are not evacuated or taken care of as well as people in developing countries is probably a big reason behind all this anti-establishment rioting.

there must be a sense of intense rage because they have a government that can actually DO something but just ISN'T. and what's happening is far too LATE.

that's in comparison with dirt poor countries..the people know that nothing more could have been done, are completely devastated but feel no need to rebel against their government and other systems because they couldn't possibly help more than they already were. or with the countries that actually are efficient in dealing with crises.

just a little insight, perhaps.

 

[jellybeenz]

This has gone beyond offensive.

Supercharged. You really do believe that Americans are sitting around in their houses waiting for an opportunity to rape, murder and steal. And that every single person in South East Asia is filled with goodwill toward their neighbour.

 

[supercharged]

no...no, i think what you need to do is wait for a natural disaster that decimates THE WHOLE COUNTRY, affects every one of the 200 million residents, and causes each one of these 200 million to go on a raping, killing and looting rampage and then compare it to a natural disaster that decimates all of china where each of the one billion residents behaves with calm, decorum and general goodwill to one another before you make inferences and claims like you are making at present (ie that all americans are morally bankrupt and worse than every other race). that would be data that convinces me. nothing short of that will do.

do you understand what i am saying, or am i too logical for you?

You being logical? Is that a joke? ROFL!

Of course you don't need the WHOLE country to be affected to make valid conclusions. In order to infer how the entire country would react, you only need expose a representative sample to the test.

And also American's are a race? I think not unless you are referring to the native American Indians. It can be proved that New Orleans residents are lawless and morally bankrupt, but other areas would need to see them struck to make a watertight case on the whole of the US. So just wait for the next few natural disasters to hit the US and the picture will become clearer.

 

[Comrade nathan]

What are you implying in pointing out that the US is the only country to react in this way? I'm just curious. Whats the point you are making?

Is that to me?

US citizens would act different (and act different compared to their enivronments) compared to other countries.

Countries that are more prepared, like Cuba, which evacuates its citizens before hand.

Also in other countries people are more prepared and less likely to go lawless. If people are more prepared they wont loss control of civility.

Then we can look how the people are able to organise themselves without the aid of a authority figure. Once the authority disappeared, people begin commiting crimes, instead of organising to work together.

Though it will be awhile before a good study comes up. If you want to look at another example of how people react different due to the environment they live in and ill organised procedures influenced deaths, search for "Social Autopsy", its about the 1995 Chicargo heat wave.

 

[supercharged]

there must be a sense of intense rage because they have a government that can actually DO something but just ISN'T. and what's happening is far too LATE.

Tell that to the judge, I'm angry cos the government didn't send enough aid after the flood, so I went and shot my neighbours, raped a few people, looted some shops, sniped at rescue teams trying to help me.....BUT IT WASN'T MY FAULT!!!! blame the government! Or maybe I just played GTA a little too often?

 

[supercharged]

This has gone beyond offensive.

Supercharged. You really do believe that Americans are sitting around in their houses waiting for an opportunity to rape, murder and steal. And that every single person in South East Asia is filled with goodwill toward their neighbour.

I really can't think of a single country where flood survivors actually shoot at their rescuers. Can you?

New Orleans in Anarchy With Fights, Rapes

[LatelineNews: 2005-9-1] NEW ORLEANS - New Orleans descended into anarchy Thursday as corpses lay abandoned in street medians, fights and fires broke out, cops turned in their badges and the governor declared war on looters who have made the city a menacing landscape of disorder and fear.
``They have M-16s and they're locked and loaded,'' Gov. Kathleen Blanco said of 300 National Guard troops who landed in New Orleans fresh from duty in Iraq. ``These troops know how to shoot and kill, and they are more than willing to do so, and I expect they will.''

Four days after Hurricane Katrina roared in with a devastating blow that inflicted potentially thousands of deaths, the fear, anger and violence mounted Thursday.

``I'm not sure I'm going to get out of here alive,'' said Canadian tourist Larry Mitzel, who handed a reporter his business card in case he goes missing. ``I'm scared of riots. I'm scared of the locals. We might get caught in the crossfire.''

This guy sums it up pretty well:

“I never thought that at a National Guardsman I would be shot at by other Americans,” said Spc. Philip Baccus of the 527th Engineer Battalion. “And I never thought I’d have to carry a rifle when on a hurricane relief mission. This is a disgrace.”

 

[jennylim]

(just because you seem to like that emoticon i'll put a few in.)

you seemed to want an explanation as to why people behaved like that. i provided a small idea as to why they may have reacted in that way. i did not justify their behaviour, and i did not intend for it to be taken that way. reasons or causes often are not sufficient justifications for acts. you're obviously grasping at straws though, so i'll be magnanimous now.

(your favourite emoticon once more)

 

[jellybeenz]

Is that to me?

US citizens would act different (and act different compared to their enivronments) compared to other countries.

Countries that are more prepared, like Cuba, which evacuates its citizens before hand.

Also in other countries people are more prepared and less likely to go lawless. If people are more prepared they wont loss control of civility.

Then we can look how the people are able to organise themselves without the aid of a authority figure. Once the authority disappeared, people begin commiting crimes, instead of organising to work together.

Though it will be awhile before a good study comes up. If you want to look at another example of how people react different due to the environment they live in and ill organised procedures influenced deaths, search for "Social Autopsy", its about the 1995 Chicargo heat wave.

Nah dude... it was directed at Mr. Prejudiced, I was trying to see if he'd admit he's a prejudiced fuck and sure enough he has revealed it.

But those are some interesting points that you raise, of course culture and social context means that people will react differently. I still maintain that people from any society have the potential to resort to anarchy in a time when clear authority is not maintained.

I don't think that NO citizens like to murder each other any more than citizens from other cities in the world do.

 

[tempco]

This has gone beyond offensive.

Supercharged. You really do believe that Americans are sitting around in their houses waiting for an opportunity to rape, murder and steal. And that every single person in South East Asia is filled with goodwill toward their neighbour.

well, america does have double australia's murder rate.

and i don't think supercharged was pushing that second point at all.

 

[jennylim]

and i don't think supercharged was pushing that second point at all.

you clearly haven't been reading the last few pages carefully enough, in that case.

 

[tempco]

you clearly haven't been reading the last few pages carefully enough, in that case.

all i see is the emphasis that the behaviour of new orlean-neans as being sub-par, and the behaviour of chinese, japanese, korean, etc are on par.

 

[ur_inner_child]

I really can't think of a single country where flood survivors actually shoot at their rescuers. Can you?


This guy sums it up pretty well:

exactly what are you trying to put forward here?

that rape/shooting at each other was because of the american government? or because they were simply american? That's all I see yourself putting forward, and your pretentious quotes from here and there don't say much, considering all you're highlighting is that american people are crap.

Can you please be more specific rather than be so generalising.