"Muslims are Masters of the world" - A Deluded drone and Propoganda (1 Viewer)

[sam04u]

You really have a knack for missing the entire point of everything said. You do not understand that if the Phoenecians were a 'Greek people', whether or not if they spoke Greek language is irrelevant when saying that they were a Greek people who invented the Phoenecian alphabet. Do you not get the simple point. If a Greek was to go over to Antarctica and create a new written English there he would still be a Greek. Even if he wasn't to speak the Greek he was still a Greek person. Get it?
You and your horribly understood tangents.

I sent kudos on the Wikipedia research before. ? You are still brining up pointless logic, in the loosest and most fallacious meaning of the word, that is irrelevant and proves nothing about the origin of a people.


The word "therefore" suggests you reached a logical conclusion based on some sort of correct premises. Please show me these?
The point was always the origin of hte people being Greek not middle eastern. You claim to not care about it yet you spent a whole rant talking about it. There would be no argument. You brought up the entire issue of the history of language to prove nothing as you have done. It never had any relevance and shows your inability, repeatedly, to interpret basic arguments. <-- lol, irony much?

Especially when I use real sources and you rely on wikipedia (and attack me for pointing out your limited knowledge). <-- lol, irony much?

And yes, the references I used pluse some extras you might find useful were attached to the end of the article in the case that you would like to learn more about the issues - specifically the origin of the Phoenecian people and the development of the written language.

Basically this post sums up why not even a single person in this forum should take you seriously.

 

[wrxsti]

Basically this post sums up why not even a single person in this forum should take you seriously.

Thats a good boy

 

[Ba'al Shem Tov]

Basically this post sums up why not even a single person in this forum should take you seriously.

How do you make any sense? Oh, you don't...my mistake.

 

[sam04u]

How do you make any sense? Oh, you don't...my mistake.

You don't even know how to structure a question. What's wrong with you? Seriously, you're a waste of forum space.

 

[Crholic]

Wow. You are ignorant and offensive. I resent these comments being a Muslim myself (no I'm not an Arab, I bet you couldn't guess where I'm from for the life of you).

The world owes much of its science and mathematics to the Islamic world. The very numerals we use everyday have their origins in the Arab and Indian world. Ditto astronomy.

Islam is synonymus with murder? How does that make any sense at all? Nothing in Islam specifies murder. Islam is not an evil religion, no religion is. A small handful of terrorists are evil. By your logic I could claim all Christians are child molesters because of the priest scandals. Seriously.

Try objectivity. I hear it makes you sound like less of a government tool.

And no, I don't agree with that article. Muslims are not masters of the world. Whoever wrote that is a tool. But you have to realise that your own perspective is clouded by your subconscious (or conscious, depending on how much of a bigot you are) belief in your own religion's superiority. There are Westerners who believe, just as much as this delusional Muslim does, that their morals/culture/religion are superior.

I was particularly interested in the story you told about the Muslim civilization. As an Assyrian, a non-Arab, Christian native of the Middle East, whose ancestors reach back to 5000 B.C., I wish to clarify some points you made in this little story, and to alert you to the dangers of unwittingly being drawn into the Arabist/Islamist ideology, which seeks to assimilate all cultures and religions into the Arab/Islamic fold.

I know you might be busy, but please find ten minutes to read what follows, as it is a perspective that you will not likely get from anywhere else.

Arabs and Muslims appeared on the world scene in 630 A.D., when the armies of Muhammad began their conquest of the Middle East. We should be very clear that this was a military conquest, not a missionary enterprise, and through the use of force, authorized by a declaration of a Jihad against infidels, Arabs/Muslims were able to forcibly convert and assimilate non-Arabs and non-Muslims into their fold. Very few indigenous communities of the Middle East survived this -- primarily Assyrians, Jews, Armenians and Coptics (of Egypt).

Having conquered the Middle East, Arabs placed these communities under a Dhimmi (see the book DHIMMI, by Bat Ye'Or) system of governance, where the communities were allowed to rule themselves as religious minorities (Christians, Jews and Zoroastrian). These communities had to pay a tax (called a Jizzya in Arabic) that was, in effect, a penalty for being non-Muslim, and that was typically 80% in times of tolerance and up to 150% in times of oppression. This tax forced many of these communities to convert to Islam, as it was designed to do.

You state, "The world owes much of its science and mathematics to the Islamic world. The very numerals we use everyday have their origins in the Arab and Indian world. Ditto astronomy." The fundamental basis of modern mathematics had been laid down not hundreds but thousands of years before by Assyrians and Babylonians, who already knew of the concept of zero, of the Pythagorean Theorem, and of many, many other developments expropriated by Arabs/Muslims (see HISTORY OF BABYLONIAN MATHEMATICS by Otto E. Neugebauer).

By the sixth century A.D., Assyrians had begun exporting back to Byzantia their own works on science, philosophy and medicine. In the field of medicine, the Bakhteesho Assyrian family produced nine generations of physicians, and founded the great medical school at Gundeshapur (Iran). Also in the area of medicine, (the Assyrian) Hunayn ibn-Ishaq's textbook on ophthalmology, written in 950 A.D., remained the authoritative source on the subject until 1800 A.D.

In the area of philosophy, the Assyrian philosopher Job of Edessa developed a physical theory of the universe, in the Assyrian language, that rivaled Aristotle's theory, and that sought to replace matter with forces (a theory that anticipated some ideas in quantum mechanics, such as the spontaneous creation and destruction of matter that occurs in the quantum vacuum).

One of the greatest Assyrian achievements of the fourth century was the founding of the first university in the world, the School of Nisibis, which had three departments, theology, philosophy and medicine, and which became a magnet and center of intellectual development in the Middle East. The statutes of the School of Nisibis, which have been preserved, later became the model upon which the first Italian university was based (see THE STATUTES OF THE SCHOOL OF NISIBIS by Arthur Voobus).

When Arabs and Islam swept through the Middle East in 630 A.D., they encountered 600 years of Assyrian Christian civilization, with a rich heritage, a highly developed culture, and advanced learning institutions. It is this civilization that became the foundation of the Arab civilization.

You state, muslimswere also responsiblefor astronomy. In fact, the astronomers you refer to were not Arabs but Chaldeans and Babylonians (of present day south-Iraq), who for millennia were known as astronomers and astrologers, and who were forcibly Arabized and Islamized -- so rapidly that by 750 A.D. they had disappeared completely.

I reviewed a book titled HOW GREEK SCIENCE PASSED TO THE ARABS, in which author De Lacy O'Leary lists the significant translators and interpreters of Greek science. Of the 22 scholars listed, 20 were Assyrians, one was Persian and one an Arab. I state at the end of my review: "The salient conclusion which can be drawn from O'Leary's book is that Assyrians played a significant role in the shaping of the Islamic world via the Greek corpus of knowledge. If this is so, one must then ask the question, what happened to the Christian communities which made them lose this great intellectual enterprise they had established? One can ask this same question of the Arabs. Sadly, O'Leary's book does not answer this question, and we must look elsewhere for the answer." I did not answer this question I posed in the review because it was not the place to answer it, but the answer is very clear, the Christian Assyrian community was drained of its population through forced conversion to Islam (by the Jizzya), and once the community had dwindled below a critical threshold, it ceased producing the scholars that were the intellectual driving force of the Islamic civilization, and that is when the so called "Golden Age of Islam" came to an end (about 850 A.D.).

Islam the religion itself was significantly molded by Assyrians and Jews (see NESTORIAN INFLUENCE ON ISLAM and HAGARISM: THE MAKING OF THE ISLAMIC WORLD).

Arab/Islamic civilization is not a progressive force, it is a regressive force; it does not give impetus, it retards. The great civilization you describe was not an Arab/Muslim accomplishment, it was an Assyrian accomplishment that Arabs expropriated and subsequently lost when they drained, through the forced conversion of Assyrians to Islam, the source of the intellectual vitality that propelled it. What other Arab/Muslim civilization has risen since? What other Arab/Muslim successes can we cite?

In fact, the Ottomans were extremely oppressive to non-Muslims. For example, young Christian boys were forcefully taken from their families, usually at the age of 8-10, and inducted into the Janissaries, (yeniceri in Turkish) where they were Islamized and made to fight for the Ottoman state. What literary, artistic or scientific achievements of the Ottomans can we point to? We can, on the other hand, point to the genocide of 750,000 Assyrians, 1.5 million Armenians and 400,000 Greeks in World War One by the Kemalist "Young Turk" government. This is the true face of Islam.

Arabs/Muslims are engaged in an explicit campaign of destruction and expropriation of cultures and communities, identities and ideas. Wherever Arab/Muslim civilization encounters a non-Arab/Muslim one, it attempts to destroy it (as the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan were destroyed, as Persepolis was destroyed by the Ayotollah Khomeini). This is a pattern that has been recurring since the advent of Islam, 1400 years ago, and is amply substantiated by the historical record. If the "foreign" culture cannot be destroyed, then it is expropriated, and revisionist historians claim that it is and was Arab, as is the case of most of the muslim "accomplishments" you cited. For example, Arab history texts in the Middle East teach that Assyrians were Arabs, a fact that no reputable scholar would assert, and that no living Assyrian would accept. Assyrians first settled Nineveh, one of the major Assyrian cities, in 5000 B.C., which is 5630 years before Arabs came into that area. Even the word 'Arab' is an Assyrian word, meaning "Westerner" (the first written reference to Arabs was by the Assyrian King Sennacherib, 800 B.C., in which he tells of conquering the "ma'rabayeh" -- Westerners. See THE MIGHT THAT WAS ASSYRIA by H. W. F. Saggs).

Even in America this Arabization policy continues. On October 27th a coalition of seven Assyrian and Maronite organizations sent an official letter to the Arab American Institute asking it to stop identifying Assyrians and Maronites as Arabs, which it had been deliberately doing.

There are minorities and nations struggling for survival in the Arab/Muslim ocean of the Middle East and Africa (Assyrians, Armenians, Coptics, Jews, southern Sudanese, Ethiopians, Nigerians...), and we must be very sensitive not to unwittingly and inadvertently support Islamic fascism and Arab Imperialism, with their attempts to wipe out all other cultures, religions and civilizations. It is incumbent upon each one of us to do our homework and research when making statements and speeches about these sensitive matters.

I hope you found this information enlightening.
Thank you for your consideration.

 

[Crholic]

^ Are you for serious?



Stop universalising.

just wait and see i am "for" serious hahaha..... YOU KNOW NOTHING, UNTIL UVE SEEN WHAT I HAVE SEEN

 

[Crholic]

k.

Wait and see what?

ull just have to wait and see wont you :mad1:

 

[PrinceHarry]

The Orthodox Church was closely linked to the Tsar, who wasn't big on industrialisation because his power lay with the landed aristocracy, who were also closely linked with the Church. That is why Russia did not become formidable militarily until WW2, after Stalin's rapid industrialisation.

But that is just your assumption, you have NO source how orthodox christianity oppose modernisation in Russia. Christianity came in the way of science and technology was some 500+ years ago. Where as even today islam still exist as a formidable challenge to modernisation, where muslim leaders think anti-polio vaccine is against islam. Source

Ba'al, please do some study on linguistics before you come here claiming I got information from Wikipedia. What I said was correct. Phoenician has been proved to be a Semitic language through comparative reconstruction, related to Arabic, Herbrew, Aramaic, and others. Greek is not in this category.


One of the biggest features of Semitic languages is that they can be written without vowels - because it's possible to discern from the context of the word what it's meant to mean. Alphabets of this nature are called abjads. Arabic and Hebrew today are written in this manner, although Hebrew has some sort of system for representing vowels in modern times. Thus, when the Phoenicians developed the alphabet, they did not have symbols for vowels.

When the Greeks adapted the Phoenician alphabet, they created vowel symbols because Greek NEEDS vowels to be written in order to be understood. If you knew even the basic history of the alphabet you would understand this. Greek as a language is more closely related to Punjabi or Hindi than it is to Phoenician.

Therefore, if the Phoenicians were neither culturally nor linguistically Greek, how are they Greek? If you're suggesting that their genetic origins lie in Greece, then I don't know, you may be right. But I don't care about that. If you want to argue genetics can account for differences in civilisation and progress, then well, frankly, I don't want to have this discussion.

Ok i'll leave this for baal since you two seems to be arguing in this topic but I must add that either Hebrew, aramaic , phoenicians or even arabic itself all predates islam and you may try to stop taking credit from that.

What use is it trying to tell me that English words are being taken into other languages, Princeharry? I know that. Every major language borrows from others. I'm merely stating with all my posts that Western civilisation owes much to the East. I love how the whole al-Khwarizmi issue was ignored by the anti-Islamists in this thread. I guess the decimal number system and algebra are not important to the Western world, among other things :S

yeah western civlisation was complemented by the east, not by Islam. The father of Algebra was Diophantus, a greek who predated Khwarizmi by almost 1000 years and Indian used decimals 3000 years before arabs(muslims) invasion of Sind, the western part of India.

 

[sam04u]

Arabs/Muslims were able to forcibly convert

Oh, you really are a moron aren't you. Well considering you're assyrian (and trust me I'm no stranger when it comes to Assyrians), I imagine you're an Iraqi. Considering Iraq (outside of the United States and now Australia), had and continues to have the largest Assyrian community in the world. In a country predominanytly muslim such as Iraq, there was still always a strong presence of Assyrians. And I don't only mean in the North, where Assyrians had the most prosperous farms and the best relationships with the Kurds, but I mean even in central baghdad. You can find some of the oldest, Assyrian sites.

So don't come here and lie that Islam ever forced everybody to convert. You wouldn't be here today if that were the cases. Christians, Jews, Zoro-Astrians and any other relious sect. which believed in monotheism. (Including smaller less known religions like Druze), were free to live in any land which came under power of the Islamic armies. And in most of the wars fought by the armies, the enemies (Kings at the time), sometimes even embraced the religion before the first signs of blood.

Proof of this alone is how long it lasted, how the people adopted the ideals and belief systems. It wasn't an imperialist empire like those of Rome, Britain or Russian and the U.S.

Assyrians kept their Assyrian ancestry. (Many remained orthodox, and in the heartlands of where the Assyrians once ruled. The foreshadow of Babylon.)
Persians kept their Persian identity. (Many remaining either of the Jewish or Zoro Astrian faith. Persians have a strong cultural identity.)
Jews kept their Jewish ancestry and history. (Allowed to just as the others build synagogues, and worship as they pleased. They weren't forced to convert, now were they?)

So basically, we've exposed a lie which you tried to further propogate around the world.

 

[sam04u]

Yeap

 

[Ademir]

Crholic, I don't know why you quoted me in your reply. I've never denied that the Arabs assimilated other cultures and peoples into their own. But that is hardly a unique phenomenon. In fact, claiming Islam is evil because of it makes no sense whatsoever - unless you're indingenous to where you live, and I mean the first culture to EVER live in that region - then you are a member of a group which in most likelihood assimilated, forcibly or not, someone who lived there before. the Romans were just as guilty of spreading Christianity and Latin where ever they set foot.

On another level, your arguement is completely false. There are plenty of examples of major Islamic regions which have maintained their own culture and language separate to Arabic despite taking on Islam... Bosnia, Albania, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, Indian, Bangladesh, all of South-East Asia... I empathise with your position as a minority in an area, as in fact I have perhaps the reverse situation, a Muslim from an area surrounded by Christians. But your fundamental arguement that Islam is somehow wrongdoing because it assimilates other cultures into as it spreads is flawed because almost every culture, religion and people have done that at some point or another.

Ba'al, my logic makes sense. It's just that you and me have different conceptions of what it means to be Greek. You seem to believe that genetically being descendant from someone from Greece makes you Greek. That may be the case for Phoenicia. I doubt it though. But in any case, it DOESN'T MATTER. You genes don't influence your civilisational development, at least that's what non-racists believe.

To be Greek from my point of view, you have to have some CONNECTION WITH GREEK CULTURE AND LANGUAGE. If the Phoenicians had this, then I would concede. But as I've said their language was Semitic, and their language was not Greek. To PROVE my point, I used their alphabet as an example - it proves that the language they spoke could not have been Greek. That is the logic.

Now, if you're arguing that they are descended from people who originally lived in Greece before Hellenic migration to the region, YOU MAY BE RIGHT. But once again, it doesn't matter to me. Not only are genetics something I don't care about in the context of this discussion, but said genetics wouldn't even belong to the Hellenic Greeks, ie the Greeks of Classical Greece who are the ones who are known for their philosophy, mathematics, all-round innovation etc.

And princeharry, I know who the father of algebra was. It doesn't change the fact that a man who was Muslim, expanded upon and greatly enriched Western knowledge of the topic. Once again, I personally do not care where a person is from. But since you guys love emphasising the contributions of other non-Muslim, mostly European people, I'm just giving you examples of where Eastern, Muslim and non-Muslim, people have contributed. I'm not actually trying to claim that Eastern people like the Phoenicians were Muslim. If we're going to get into "aha but they didn't contribute as much as <random group>" then that's pointless since I think quantity hardly matters.

 

[beentherdunthat]

^ I like this guy.

don't write too much next time. People don't have patience sometimes, and things like that are good to be read

 

[xeuyrawp]

Can you please identify those quotes in the Jewish Torah?

Can you please learn about your own culture?

The Torah is only the first five books of the Tanakh, which is the word you're after, I believe.

 

[beentherdunthat]

The torah is actually mentioned in the qur'an . It's actually called the torah too.

 

[sickone]

ull just have to wait and see wont you :mad1:

And to think that your deluded assyrian views couldn't get any more idiotic....

 

[wrxsti]

Muslims Conquered countries like indonesia with brute force yea people?

 

[ari89]

Someone summarise Crholic v Ademir for me

 

[Crholic]

Oh, you really are a moron aren't you. Well considering you're assyrian (and trust me I'm no stranger when it comes to Assyrians), I imagine you're an Iraqi. Considering Iraq (outside of the United States and now Australia), had and continues to have the largest Assyrian community in the world. In a country predominanytly muslim such as Iraq, there was still always a strong presence of Assyrians. And I don't only mean in the North, where Assyrians had the most prosperous farms and the best relationships with the Kurds, but I mean even in central baghdad. You can find some of the oldest, Assyrian sites.

So don't come here and lie that Islam ever forced everybody to convert. You wouldn't be here today if that were the cases. Christians, Jews, Zoro-Astrians and any other relious sect. which believed in monotheism. (Including smaller less known religions like Druze), were free to live in any land which came under power of the Islamic armies. And in most of the wars fought by the armies, the enemies (Kings at the time), sometimes even embraced the religion before the first signs of blood.

Proof of this alone is how long it lasted, how the people adopted the ideals and belief systems. It wasn't an imperialist empire like those of Rome, Britain or Russian and the U.S.

Assyrians kept their Assyrian ancestry. (Many remained orthodox, and in the heartlands of where the Assyrians once ruled. The foreshadow of Babylon.)
Persians kept their Persian identity. (Many remaining either of the Jewish or Zoro Astrian faith. Persians have a strong cultural identity.)
Jews kept their Jewish ancestry and history. (Allowed to just as the others build synagogues, and worship as they pleased. They weren't forced to convert, now were they?)

So basically, we've exposed a lie which you tried to further propogate around the world.

Thankyou neanderthal. For your quite ignorant comment. Just because you know Assyrians does NOT mean you know anything about Assyrian history. You have not seen what i have seen so please keep your mouth shut...you know not of the realities of being a non-muslim in a muslim country. The only reason why Assyrians still live today is because they struggled long and hard for existance, through all the killings and mass conversions and even attempted genocide by muslims..i kid you not this is the reality for non-muslims in ALL MUSLIM COUNTRIES. For every time you are denying this truth you are denying it only to yourself!...Go out there and meet the people who have lost whole families because of this islamic 'convert or die' tactics AND zero tolerance for other religions aka 'infildels'..then tell me this is not a realiy all over the world where islam dominates. Its true that Assyrians can get along with muslims, they can get along with everyone.. we have long been taught of the atrocities our people have encountered and we will never forget it, as it is still happening today but IT IS IN OUR RELIGION TO FORGIVE AND MOST IMPORTANTLY LOVE-. You say that islam embraced other religions and that they lived in peace...that is the partly the largest most ignorant thing you have written you are only writing what you have been taught YOU NEED TO GO AND SEE WITH YOUR OWN EYES...These non-muslims who lived together believe me never lived in peace they only kept quiet because they lived in fear. At one point Islamist made a non-islam tax anyone who was non-muslim had to give 90% of their earnings and at other harsher times 150% this tactic was enforced so that people had no other choice but to convert..(theres no way in hell you can deny this i know first hand that this was a fact for both my father and grandfather)...as for 'embracing other religions' i want to know what your defenition of 'embrace' actually means because it must be a pretty sick and twisted one. Here until this day there are thousands of cases of preists being killed and nuns being raped....OHH HOW BEAUTIFUL IS THIS RELIGION OF ISLAM WHICH EMBRACES ALL HOW PEACEFUL AND LOVING!... most of islams victims of attempted conversion live in fear..i myself know many of different backgrounds not simular to mine with the same stories of killings mistreatment in the hands of muslims including innocent women and children. Do not tell me i am 'Iraqi'....i know what i am...i am Assyrian, i do not have the same rights as a muslim Iraqi: therefore i will never embrace this label as long as i live.


you keep telling your mind these lies...and ill keep spreading the truth. thankyou

 

[PrinceHarry]

Crholic, I don't know why you quoted me in your reply. I've never denied that the Arabs assimilated other cultures and peoples into their own. But that is hardly a unique phenomenon. In fact, claiming Islam is evil because of it makes no sense whatsoever - unless you're indingenous to where you live, and I mean the first culture to EVER live in that region - then you are a member of a group which in most likelihood assimilated, forcibly or not, someone who lived there before. the Romans were just as guilty of spreading Christianity and Latin where ever they set foot.

On another level, your arguement is completely false. There are plenty of examples of major Islamic regions which have maintained their own culture and language separate to Arabic despite taking on Islam... Bosnia, Albania, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, Indian, Bangladesh, all of South-East Asia... I empathise with your position as a minority in an area, as in fact I have perhaps the reverse situation, a Muslim from an area surrounded by Christians. But your fundamental arguement that Islam is somehow wrongdoing because it assimilates other cultures into as it spreads is flawed because almost every culture, religion and people have done that at some point or another.

His argument speak truth about islam. It was an evil force that spread the middle east, north africa and asia. As it spread so were disaster, murder and pillage along with the evil religion that continues to oppress billions of people today. Is it just a coincidence that muslim majority areas in historical India such as Pakistan and bangladesh are among the most backward countries in the world nowadays? Muslim invader's cruelty against the indigenous people were unrivalled and unheard of. In north India when muslim invaded, wives of hindu rulers and fighters jumped into fire to kill themselves instead of being raped by islamic invaders. Forced conversion were also well documented, imposing tax on non muslims.

And princeharry, I know who the father of algebra was. It doesn't change the fact that a man who was Muslim, expanded upon and greatly enriched Western knowledge of the topic. Once again, I personally do not care where a person is from. But since you guys love emphasising the contributions of other non-Muslim, mostly European people, I'm just giving you examples of where Eastern, Muslim and non-Muslim, people have contributed. I'm not actually trying to claim that Eastern people like the Phoenicians were Muslim. If we're going to get into "aha but they didn't contribute as much as <random group>" then that's pointless since I think quantity hardly matters.

There is no fact of how a muslim greatly enriched western knowlege. His work was classified as plagiarised version of Diophuntus work and Indian mathematician Brahmagupta's work without giving credits. Just as Quran is a plagiarised book based on the Bible and Jewish scriptures with a few extremist elements added to suit their evil religion

 

[Crholic]

:mad1:

Crholic, I don't know why you quoted me in your reply. I've never denied that the Arabs assimilated other cultures and peoples into their own. But that is hardly a unique phenomenon. In fact, claiming Islam is evil because of it makes no sense whatsoever - unless you're indingenous to where you live, and I mean the first culture to EVER live in that region - then you are a member of a group which in most likelihood assimilated, forcibly or not, someone who lived there before. the Romans were just as guilty of spreading Christianity and Latin where ever they set foot.

On another level, your arguement is completely false. There are plenty of examples of major Islamic regions which have maintained their own culture and language separate to Arabic despite taking on Islam... Bosnia, Albania, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, Indian, Bangladesh, all of South-East Asia... I empathise with your position as a minority in an area, as in fact I have perhaps the reverse situation, a Muslim from an area surrounded by Christians. But your fundamental arguement that Islam is somehow wrongdoing because it assimilates other cultures into as it spreads is flawed because almost every culture, religion and people have done that at some point or another.

I dont think you understood what i was saying. I was not talking about assimilation because that requires all parties of the assimilation to come together as a part of a larger national family. Wich Assyrians are continually trying to make clear we are not of the arab culture or arab people for that matter (that would require speaking arabic..when we speak our native neo-aramaic a seperate language and culture)..therefore we have not assimilated. That is where my problem lies...Islam cannot take credit for what our people have contributed to history. They killed our people ATTEMPTED to assimilate them, and now even today are attempting to call our history their own?...You might not think this even matters in the long run as human beings..but where we live we are treated like animals..holding on to our history means that we are holding onto what our ancestors died trying to keep alive. Its funny how were killed and disrespected by muslims where we live then muslims outside our country think we have 'assimilated' just because we are not wiped off the map...and they feel free to claim our history......i think not

Ba'al, my logic makes sense. It's just that you and me have different conceptions of what it means to be Greek. You seem to believe that genetically being descendant from someone from Greece makes you Greek. That may be the case for Phoenicia. I doubt it though. But in any case, it DOESN'T MATTER. You genes don't influence your civilisational development, at least that's what non-racists believe.

To be Greek from my point of view, you have to have some CONNECTION WITH GREEK CULTURE AND LANGUAGE. If the Phoenicians had this, then I would concede. But as I've said their language was Semitic, and their language was not Greek. To PROVE my point, I used their alphabet as an example - it proves that the language they spoke could not have been Greek. That is the logic.

Now, if you're arguing that they are descended from people who originally lived in Greece before Hellenic migration to the region, YOU MAY BE RIGHT. But once again, it doesn't matter to me. Not only are genetics something I don't care about in the context of this discussion, but said genetics wouldn't even belong to the Hellenic Greeks, ie the Greeks of Classical Greece who are the ones who are known for their philosophy, mathematics, all-round innovation etc.

And princeharry, I know who the father of algebra was. It doesn't change the fact that a man who was Muslim, expanded upon and greatly enriched Western knowledge of the topic. Once again, I personally do not care where a person is from. But since you guys love emphasising the contributions of other non-Muslim, mostly European people, I'm just giving you examples of where Eastern, Muslim and non-Muslim, people have contributed. I'm not actually trying to claim that Eastern people like the Phoenicians were Muslim. If we're going to get into "aha but they didn't contribute as much as <random group>" then that's pointless since I think quantity hardly matters.