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[Official Critique Thread] (3 Viewers)

goldendawn

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jhakka said:
Go on their journey and come back blessed and altered. :p

I can tell you one thing...my mind will be more than just "The town where time stands still" it will become the "TOWN WHERE LIFE CEASES TO EXIST"! If anyone mention the J word, which is quickly becoming and expletive thanks to the HSC. Hehe
 
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jhakka

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Is this where your journey of self discovery has led you? To the realisation that you hate the idea of journeys? :p
 

goldendawn

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jhakka said:
Is this where your journey of self discovery has led you? To the realisation that you hate the idea of journeys? :p
Why dost thou taunt me thus! I was once a lover or journey's...but then that love was taken by the dark powers at the Board of Studies...tortured, mutilated, a ruined creature...

Nah, just kidding. I love the archetypal symbol of journeying....a way that you may, as the Ancient Greeks put it, "know thyself". Its the curriculum I hate.
 

goldendawn

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jhakka said:
Don't worry. I'm sure the curriculum hates you too.

Aww, thank you. And I will make sure the curriculum and I both know where we stand when I send the board of studies a nice letter telling precisely what I think of the new curriculum. Borrowing from the words of an ex student (or something similar):

Section 1 - 20 Marks

In what way has your experience of the new HSC led you to understand its close relationship to a pile of excrement? In your response you should refer to at least TWO of the prescribed texts and at least ONE text of related material.

Prescribed Texts:

- "Crime and Punishment" - Dostoevsky
- "The Pancoption Penitentiary" - Foucault
- "Life, Or Something We Don't Want you to Have" - Board of Studies
 
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Ok to start with....mine porbably wont make sense. Secondly, i dont care how much crap i get about it BUT i do want some replys. Let me know what you think. If your response is "i think you're crazy" thanks but i've been told.

So people let me hear what you think, crap and all.
 

mugrug

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Jonnieette said:
Ok to start with....mine porbably wont make sense. Secondly, i dont care how much crap i get about it BUT i do want some replys. Let me know what you think. If your response is "i think you're crazy" thanks but i've been told.

So people let me hear what you think, crap and all.
Bizarre, truly bizarre.

Earlier on I was hating it, thinking it a pretentious wank. Yet the further i read the more involved I felt I became. The writing is strange and beautiful, no doubt about that. The story is... well, bizarre. But I like it.

I would like to ask how much of yourself is in this story? I'm not sure how to phrase it (After reading something that moves me like that I never can) but how much of that is taken from your life and then abstracted and redirected to a character/s? I got a real sense of personal events being hidden behind the text for some reason.

Random, strange and brilliantly illogical. It's almost narcotic.

I have no ideas how examiners will react. They'll either love it or hate it. I love it, but I love angst. This is an intellectual angst, a metaphysical angst. It's stunning and perplexing.

Sitting back and reflecting on it I am overwhelmed by an indefinable "something." An emotion i felt when I first watched "American Beauty" or first finished reading "Ender's Game." It has something to do with the fact that I have just witnessed something marvellous but cannott define what it is or indeed what it makes me feel. It's transcendant. It moved me from an artistic standpoint and that's the highest praise that can be given to any piece. Truly bizarre.
 

goldendawn

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Jonnieette said:
Ok to start with....mine porbably wont make sense. Secondly, i dont care how much crap i get about it BUT i do want some replys. Let me know what you think. If your response is "i think you're crazy" thanks but i've been told.

So people let me hear what you think, crap and all.

Hi Joineette,

This is a very good work. I must say that because I do not favour 'angst', it is the lyrical element of your work, which has caught me in its web. Your work poses questions about the nature of self, the nature of perception and consciousness; the overall fragmented form of the story underpinning your concept and expressing it strikingly. One line that I particularly enjoyed, and which led me down a pathway of thought came in the beginning of the story:

"the Hunter…
…the Fool…
…the Child?

We need to bring them all together in one room, in one place? Is that possible? Then we can begin understanding why exactly you have split from these parts of yourself."

The notion of aspects of self, expressed through archetypal images, appealed to my conceptual and aesthetic values. Its as if the work exists as an allegory, whereby MPD becomes a symbol for the human yearning to understand the self. The psychologist figure represents the clinical, rational element which strips us of the mystical sense of being. The flux of different 'character' voices to express a single individual in their varying aspects, however, affirms an underlying ocean of being. Beneath the dark and heaving surface of your narrative, there seems to be an inchaote truth. Whilst the narrative may not end with the realisation of this truth, it seems to ask us to dive in and search for our own.

I like your work. I think it is well written and tonally engaging; abounding in powerful imagery and emotive impact. I don't think 'angst' was your ultimate intent, I think you have used it to lead us to the verge of something more profound. Am I wrong?
PS: Have you read Jung?
 
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jhakka

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Goldendawn, your use of (seemingly) Shakespearian language in everyday conversation makes me feel dumb. :(
 
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jhakka

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Jonnieette said:
Ok to start with....mine porbably wont make sense. Secondly, i dont care how much crap i get about it BUT i do want some replys. Let me know what you think. If your response is "i think you're crazy" thanks but i've been told.

So people let me hear what you think, crap and all.
I started reading it (got to about page 7) before I realised I couldn't go on. Too slow and too postmodern for me.
 

goldendawn

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haha - no Jhakka, don't feel dumb. I just enjoy language. Some people think its pompous. I don't really care though. I just love expression for my own sake. Not everyone "digs" that. What can I say? I'm artsy. :)
 
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jhakka

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I don't mind it, I can just never think to use those words (though I do know what 99% of them mean). I suppose I'm a "say what needs to be said" kind of guy, and that definitely shows in my writing. It all comes down to personal style, though it is always good to be open to other people and appreciate their personal styles.

Its all good. :)
 

goldendawn

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Yeah, I think appreciating how everyone expresses themselves is important too. I admire practicality in writing, it gets me out of my often abstract style.
 
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jhakka

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I like reading different styles of writing, and I feel that no matter what you do, it can be effective if you do it well. As I said, I say what needs to be said, and that's how I write. I also think that I say it effectively and let the responder see what I want them to see, while leaving a bit to the imagination. Having said that, some of the works I have read, while a bit arsty for my taste, convey what needs to be said effectively, based on the chosen style, and I feel that that is the one of the more important parts of writing.

Was being artsy an effort at first (when you started talking/typing like that)? I imagine it would be something you have to work on and get used to.
 

goldendawn

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jhakka said:
I like reading different styles of writing, and I feel that no matter what you do, it can be effective if you do it well. As I said, I say what needs to be said, and that's how I write. I also think that I say it effectively and let the responder see what I want them to see, while leaving a bit to the imagination. Having said that, some of the works I have read, while a bit arsty for my taste, convey what needs to be said effectively, based on the chosen style, and I feel that that is the one of the more important parts of writing.

Was being artsy an effort at first (when you started talking/typing like that)? I imagine it would be something you have to work on and get used to.

Yes, saying what needs to be said is important. Yet language can be a form of artistry - poetry for example. I believe what you said, that the best works come when both artistry and clarity are married in a work. Personally, though, I am a fan of lyrical writing within the narrative form.

As for my artsy tendencies in everyday speech, lol, the psychologist says its "overcompensation". Because I have poor abstract spacial skills (aka, I suck at maths), my mind has focused and developed the language centre of my brain. I scored in the 99th percentile on the adult language test - which means I am "supposed" to be better than 99% of the population (but I hate the expectation now!) . This is why I skipped year 10, and moved straight to Year 11 so that I could specialise in subjects primarly using the language centre of the brain. So, I have been artsy in conversation for the majority of my life.
 
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goldendawn said:
Yes, saying what needs to be said is important. Yet language can be a form of artistry - poetry for example. I believe what you said, that the best works come when both artistry and clarity are married in a work. Personally, though, I am a fan of lyrical writing within the narrative form.

As for my artsy tendencies in everyday speech, lol, the psychologist says its "overcompensation". Because I have poor abstract spacial skills (aka, I suck at maths), my mind has focused and developed the language centre of my brain. I scored in the 99th percentile on the adult language test - which means I am "supposed" to be better than 99% of the population (but I hate the expectation now!) . This is why I skipped year 10, and moved straight to Year 11 so that I could specialise in subjects primarly using the language centre of the brain. So, I have been artsy in conversation for the majority of my life.
Well that explains that, then. Artsy tendencies in conversation every now and then is a nice change from the usual.

I don't see artsiness as an absolute essential in writing. Genre and such are always factors to take into account. Fantasy, for example (my specialty as far as genre goes) has formal language, and although it used to be extremely artsy and detailed, this is a convention that has become less important over the last fifty years or so. In some cases, this means that if you choose artsiness, it would have to be a conscious decision on whether or not to comply with or disregard the conventions of any given genre or form.

On the same note, clarity is very similar. Some texts (such as postmodern texts, from my limited understanding of it) require less clarity, as they appear to have the intent of making the responder truly consider what he or she is reading. However, the problem is when people misuse the idea of lack of clarity and their work becomes weird for the sake of being weird.
 

goldendawn

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jhakka said:
Well that explains that, then. Artsy tendencies in conversation every now and then is a nice change from the usual.

I don't see artsiness as an absolute essential in writing. Genre and such are always factors to take into account. Fantasy, for example (my specialty as far as genre goes) has formal language, and although it used to be extremely artsy and detailed, this is a convention that has become less important over the last fifty years or so. In some cases, this means that if you choose artsiness, it would have to be a conscious decision on whether or not to comply with or disregard the conventions of any given genre or form.

On the same note, clarity is very similar. Some texts (such as postmodern texts, from my limited understanding of it) require less clarity, as they appear to have the intent of making the responder truly consider what he or she is reading. However, the problem is when people misuse the idea of lack of clarity and their work becomes weird for the sake of being weird.

Yes. This is what I dislike about postmodern work. It becomes bizarre for the sake of bizarrness, confused, and...yes....'angsty' or nihilistic, since postmodernism states that we are all different and will never be able to understanding each other. This allows people to go off and say that life is pointless. What a cop-out.

I am also a fan of science fiction and fantasy, perhaps because of its imaginative nature (I studied Speculative Fiction in ext1. Its a genre heading for fantasy, sci-fi, horror, etc). My ext2 major work is a work of fantasy. And yes, its artsy! hehe. Speculative Fiction gives the composer total creative freedom. Its difficult to subvert the genre, since it is so liberal. The best works of Speculative Fiction, nonetheless, seem to suspend our disbelief and express something significant about human nature or the potentials of human experience. I hate, though how some writers mass produce works of fantasy or sci-fi just to get to an audience, losing its meaning and value.
 
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goldendawn said:
Yes. This is what I dislike about postmodern work. It becomes bizarre for the sake of bizarrness, confused, and...yes....'angsty' or nihilistic, since postmodernism states that we are all different and will never be able to understanding each other. This allows people to go off and say that life is pointless. What a cop-out.

I am also a fan of science fiction and fantasy, perhaps because of its imaginative nature (I studied Speculative Fiction in ext1. Its a genre heading for fantasy, sci-fi, horror, etc). My ext2 major work is a work of fantasy. And yes, its artsy! hehe. Speculative Fiction gives the composer total creative freedom. Its difficult to subvert the genre, since it is so liberal. The best works of Speculative Fiction, nonetheless, seem to suspend our disbelief and express something significant about human nature or the potentials of human experience. I hate, though how some writers mass produce works of fantasy or sci-fi just to get to an audience, losing its meaning and value.
So when it comes to writing traditional fantasy (castles, dragons, all that jazz) you're more of a Tolkien or Raymond E. Feist, then? (If you don't write about this stuff, I'm just using it as an example anyway.) While, on the other hand I'd be more of a Robin Hobb or Sara Douglass. I'm not saying that our own writing could compete with theirs by any means, but rather that our own styles of the genre seem to take similar approaches. I suppose it all comes down to the genre, and how the author believes it should be approached.

By mass production, do you mean writing for the sake of writing? Some great authors seem to be doing this, including Stephen King and David Eddings. King, because his newer horrors don't seem to have the same about of effort as was put into his older stuff (some of which scared the shit out of me. Read Pet Sematary? That was freaky.) Eddings, because his characters seem to follow the same formulas (or formulae?) in his serieses (though I am a huge fan of The Belgariad). They're writing to pay the rent, so to speak.

I suppose that's the problem I have with postmodernism. People use it for the sake of using it. Some don't have passion for their choice of genre and some just use it as an excuse for writing badly. Pain in the arse to read.

(This is the best conversation I've had on BOS ever. It's evolved, yet not gone stupid.)
 

goldendawn

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jhakka said:
So when it comes to writing traditional fantasy (castles, dragons, all that jazz) you're more of a Tolkien or Raymond E. Feist, then? (If you don't write about this stuff, I'm just using it as an example anyway.) While, on the other hand I'd be more of a Robin Hobb or Sara Douglass. I'm not saying that our own writing could compete with theirs by any means, but rather that our own styles of the genre seem to take similar approaches. I suppose it all comes down to the genre, and how the author believes it should be approached.

By mass production, do you mean writing for the sake of writing? Some great authors seem to be doing this, including Stephen King and David Eddings. King, because his newer horrors don't seem to have the same about of effort as was put into his older stuff (some of which scared the shit out of me. Read Pet Sematary? That was freaky.) Eddings, because his characters seem to follow the same formulas (or formulae?) in his serieses (though I am a huge fan of The Belgariad). They're writing to pay the rent, so to speak.

I suppose that's the problem I have with postmodernism. People use it for the sake of using it. Some don't have passion for their choice of genre and some just use it as an excuse for writing badly. Pain in the arse to read.

(This is the best conversation I've had on BOS ever. It's evolved, yet not gone stupid.)
I am certainly more of a Tolkien (Feist seems to rip off Tolkien too often for my liking!), although Tolkien would probably get peeved at my use of symbolism, he hated allegory. In that sense, I am more of a Le Guin. lol. Every writer is different I suppose. How good a writer is, for me, should (if any one would bother assesing them) be based on their own level of creative accomplishment. How well have they brought their own ideas to fruition? How well have they developed their own form within a greater form (like genre)? Eddings, I have never gotten into. But I certainly think of King with the highest respect. King writes from his own desire to write, his own creative urges. The kind of mass production I mean, is when a publishing house hires someone to write something wholly mechanised and geared towards an audience, to boost revenue. Its when the form and meaning of the work do not come from the heart, but purely from the mind. Just as clarity and artistry must walk hand in hand, so must the mind and the heart, to amount to something really significant. (stop me if this is getting too sentimental!).

This is also the most interesting conversation I have ever had on this site!
 
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goldendawn said:
I am certainly more of a Tolkien (Feist seems to rip off Tolkien too often for my liking!), although Tolkien would probably get peeved at my use of symbolism, he hated allegory. In that sense, I am more of a Le Guin. lol. Every writer is different I suppose. How good a writer is, for me, should (if any one would bother assesing them) be based on their own level of creative accomplishment. How well have they brought their own ideas to fruition? How well have they developed their own form within a greater form (like genre)? Eddings, I have never gotten into. But I certainly think of King with the highest respect. King writes from his own desire to write, his own creative urges. The kind of mass production I mean, is when a publishing house hires someone to write something wholly mechanised and geared towards an audience, to boost revenue. Its when the form and meaning of the work do not come from the heart, but purely from the mind. Just as clarity and artistry must walk hand in hand, so must the mind and the heart, to amount to something really significant. (stop me if this is getting too sentimental!).

This is also the most interesting conversation I have ever had on this site!
I read LeGuin's Earthsea Quartet when I was younger, but didn't enjoy it. I was probably too young at the time, and that book is on my post HSC to read list, as I do own it.

I've only read about a chapter of Magician by Feist, and that is also on my to read list. It seemed pretty Tolkien-ish, rather detailed and a bit long winded, though from what I've read and heard about it, it's pretty good in the fact that it (apparently) becomes quite sci-fi-ish.

On the topic of fantasy, have you read anything by David Gemmell? His Rigante books are brilliant, particularly if you like the dark hero. However I have heard that, like Eddings, some of his characters in other books seem to follow a set recipe.

King is an awesome writer, though as I said, his new books seem to be slipping. Perhaps it's just one or two dodgy ones in his mass of brilliant ones, and I wouldn't be surprised. You can't write brilliance all the time. But as I said, his early stuff is scary as hell (not piss myself scary, but make you think scary), while his new stuff isn't so effective in the fright factor (I refer, mainly, to Dreamcatcher, which was very good, but nowhere near as good as The Shining or Pet Sematary). He engaging in both fiction and non fiction (I refer to his book about horror, Danse Macabre), and is extremely funny when he wants to be. He, for the most part, can put together novels that are perfect for his chosen genre.

On your newly clarified mass production, I hate that too. I feel that there are so many crap books on the shelves, while many great writers probably don't even get looked at by publishers. That craps me, especially as one of my goals is to one day publish a novel (based on the ideas in my Major work). They could always try making money on something that's good (while not going crazy with toys and food, like they're doing with Harry Potter, a series I love but still resent because of all the external hype and overkill).

I agree that writing should be something the author is truly passionate about (although if someone who is just money hungry writes something brilliantly engaging, it won't stop me from loving it), and that doing it for money just defeats the purpose. It should be something that the author is willing to pour him/herself into and be ready to stand up and say "This is the best I can do, and I am damn proud of it."
 

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