Parametric equations of Parabola - Need help with question (1 Viewer)

blackops23

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Hi guys, here's the question:

If the normal at p(2ap, ap^2) on the parabola x^2 = 4ay meets the parabola AGAIN at Q:

(i) Show that the coordinates of Q are ( [-2a*(p^2 +2)]/p , {a*[(p^2+ 2)^2]}/(p^2) )
Sorry its so hard to read, I'm an absolute nub with latex
basically abcissa: [(minus 2a)*(p squared plus 2)] divided by p
Ordinate: {a*[(p squared plus 2)^2]} divided by (p squared)

I tried solving x^2=4ay with the equation of the normal at P - but that just went supaa complicated, and I couldn't think of any other methods.

Basically, PARAMETER FOR Q is (-(p^2 +2)/p) - but I don't know how to prove that

Any help would be awesome,

Thanks guys
 
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deterministic

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Equation of normal:
x+py=ap^3+2ap
Sub y=x^2/4a into above:

x+px^2/4a=ap^3+2ap
4ax+px^2=4a(ap(p^2+2))
px^2+4ax-4a^2p(p^2+2)=0

This yields a quadratic equation in x but DO NOT USE THE QUADRATIC EQUATION
This is because we already know x=2ap is a solution to the quadratic as the equation was derived from the normal equation at x=2ap. Hence use some polynomial knowledge to get the other solution easily. Let x be the other solution and hence the x value where the normal meets the parabola again. By product of roots we have:

x*2ap=-4a^2p(p^2+2)/p=-4a^2(p^2+2)
x=-2a(p^2+2)/p=2a(-(p^2+2)/p)... implying the other point has the parameter is
-(p^2+2)/p
 

Gussy Booo

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Here's another solution. I'm just going to make sure you understand what you're doing. I'm a big fan of understanding maths as it will help you A LOT >_>. Another thing to remember is that you should pick the FASTEST method in solving problems. determinisitc has found a very fast and elegant way in solving the problem which is much more favourable.

Now the first thing to understand is why we use simultaneous equations to find the "points of intersections"
In your junior years you learnt that in order to find an x intercept you let y = 0 right? BUT WHY?
If we look further into the maths, by letting y=0 we are actually going through the process of simultaneous equations !

For example, if I gave you the curve y=5x+7 and asked you to find the where it cut the x-axis you'd let y = 0.
But looking deeper we can see that y=0 actually REPRESENTS the x -axis. So we're finding the P.O.I of the X-AXIS and the CURVE.
In other words
y=5x+7......(1)
y=0...........(2)
(1) --> (2)
5x+7=0 (This is another name for "Let y=0")
The thing to learn from this is: - When you use simultaneous equations you are creating a NEW EQUATION which will give you the points of intersections which are REPRESENTED by the roots of the NEW EQUATION.
The new equation we produced was : 5x+7=0 and the only root of this equation was x=-1.4 which represents the P.O.I of the x-axis and the curve, but more formally: the x-intercepts

So fast forwarding we have two curves:

1) x²=4ay [The parabola]
2) x+py=ap³+2ap [The normal at P]

Now by using simultaneous equation (and eliminating y) we get a NEW EQUATION:

(p)x²+(4a)x-(4a²p³+8a²p)=0

If I was to find the X VALUES of this NEW EQUATION it will give me the P.O.I of the two curves.

But we know that x=2ap is a solution to the new equation.
Hence we can use Product of Roots to find the other x value
I.e.
-(8a²p+4a²p³)/p = 2ap.α
α=[-2a(p²+2)]/p
Hence x=[-2a(p²+2)]/p
To find the y coordinate we can subsitute the new x value into any one of the two equations given by the 2 curves. This is because the curves BOTH lie on the same y-coordinate WHEN they're at that SPECIFIC x-coordinate. So any will do.
.'. y = a(p²+ 2)²/p²
.'. Q ([-2a(p²+2)]/p , a(p²+ 2)²/p² )
Ok! So the last step, determining how to represent the parameter Q in terms of the parameter p. Do you understand this?
On the parabola we can place MANY parameters, all of which define the parabola at a certain instance.
It is memorised that the STANDARD FORM of coordinates in terms of parameters is ALWAYS (2aΩ,aΩ²)
So:
-If at a particular point P with parameter p, it will have coordinates (2ap,ap²)
-If at a particular point Q with parameter q, it will have coordinates (2aq,aq²)
-If at a particular point T with parameter t, it will have coordinates (2at,at²)

You get the point right?
So at Q it should have a x coordinate of 2aq.
But we found out that Q is a point of intersection and ALSO has an x coordinate of -2a(p²+2)/p
So we can say that these two x coordinates are equal!
and so:
2aq = -2a(p²+2)/p
We solve for q now so we can express it in terms of the parameter p
q = -(p²+2)/p

That's that!
I hope you understood that. Sorry if I made you feel dumb with the understanding. But the clearer it is of what you're doing, the more likely you are to find tricks and fast methods in doing your problems as deterministic did. Understanding is the key to mathematics.
Good luck!
 
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blackops23

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thanks to both of you for the help - deterministic: WOW never would I have thought of such a faster method - thank you very much.

Anyway, just a follow up question:

Part 2 - Prove that the length of PQ is {4a / (1+p^2)^1.5} / (p^2)

Do I use the distance formula or is there some other faster method?
Thanks guys
 

blackops23

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Ok theres another part of the question which I don't understand what it is asking me:

(b) If PQ subtends a right angle at the focus S and M is the foot of the perpendicular from S to the tangent at P, find the coordinates of M, and find the lengths of SM and SP.

Now "M is the foot of the perpendicular from S to the tangent at P" - what on earth does that mean??
 
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janchanisek

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Now "M is the foot of the perpendicular from S to the tangent at P" - what on earth does that mean??
It just means if you draw a line that passes through S (lets call this line A) that is perpendicular to the tangent at P (Line B), M is basically the intersection of Lines A and B. =]
 

Gussy Booo

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Yes. Foot ---> Human Foot ---> Located at the bottom OF:
1) Draw the tangent at P
2) Draw a line FROM S so that it is PERPENDICULAR TO the tangent at P
3) The Point of intersection is M.
I've always disliked the "foot" terminology.
 

blackops23

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Can someone help me find M, I tried finding the equation of QS which turned out to be tooo complicated, (the gradient I got was like a quartic divided by a negative cubic...)
If someone could find a quick easy solution it would be immensely appreciated.
 

Drongoski

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Equation of normal:
x+py=ap^3+2ap
Sub y=x^2/4a into above:

x+px^2/4a=ap^3+2ap
4ax+px^2=4a(ap(p^2+2))
px^2+4ax-4a^2p(p^2+2)=0

This yields a quadratic equation in x but DO NOT USE THE QUADRATIC EQUATION
This is because we already know x=2ap is a solution to the quadratic as the equation was derived from the normal equation at x=2ap. Hence use some polynomial knowledge to get the other solution easily. Let x be the other solution and hence the x value where the normal meets the parabola again. By product of roots we have:

x*2ap=-4a^2p(p^2+2)/p=-4a^2(p^2+2)
x=-2a(p^2+2)/p=2a(-(p^2+2)/p)... implying the other point has the parameter is
-(p^2+2)/p
I followed yr solution with interest but I disagree with your "DO NOT USE THE QUADRATIC EQUATION". Why not?

Knowing that x = 2ap is 1 root, that helps you factorise the LHS to get:

(x-2ap)(px + 2a(p^2 +2)) = 0

so 2nd root is -2a(p^2+2)/p; subst this into x^2 = 4ay, you get the corresp y-value and hence the co-ords of Q.
 

Gussy Booo

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I followed yr solution with interest but I disagree with your "DO NOT USE THE QUADRATIC EQUATION". Why not?

Knowing that x = 2ap is 1 root, that helps you factorise the LHS to get:

(x-2ap)(px + 2a(p^2 +2)) = 0

so 2nd root is -2a(p^2+2)/p; subst this into x^2 = 4ay, you get the corresp y-value and hence the co-ords of Q.
Brilliant :D !
 

blackops23

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oK, I'VE GIVEn up, if someone could spare a few minutes to show me how to find M, or at least give me a few clues, it would be immensely appreciated.
 

janchanisek

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I followed yr solution with interest but I disagree with your "DO NOT USE THE QUADRATIC EQUATION". Why not?

Knowing that x = 2ap is 1 root, that helps you factorise the LHS to get:

(x-2ap)(px + 2a(p^2 +2)) = 0

so 2nd root is -2a(p^2+2)/p; subst this into x^2 = 4ay, you get the corresp y-value and hence the co-ords of Q.

I respectfully disagree with the above... the first way of solving using sum/products of roots that deterministic suggested is better and quicker =]
 

janchanisek

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oK, I'VE GIVEn up, if someone could spare a few minutes to show me how to find M, or at least give me a few clues, it would be immensely appreciated.
1. Find equation of tangent at P (i.e. line PM)
2. Find the equation of SM (which is perpendicular to PM) using point gradient formula passing thru S (0, a)
3. Solve (1) and (2) simulaneously to find the coordinates of M

=]
 

blackops23

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Oh crap, SM is PERPENDCULAR TO THE TANGENT... Seriously sometimes I am astounded by my own stupidity. But at least that makes the question a lot easier now :)
And yep, I liked deterministic's solution better because taking the (x-2ap) factor out of the the quadratic is bloody ridiculous.
 

deterministic

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I followed yr solution with interest but I disagree with your "DO NOT USE THE QUADRATIC EQUATION". Why not?

Knowing that x = 2ap is 1 root, that helps you factorise the LHS to get:

(x-2ap)(px + 2a(p^2 +2)) = 0

so 2nd root is -2a(p^2+2)/p; subst this into x^2 = 4ay, you get the corresp y-value and hence the co-ords of Q.
Let me clarify, what i meant by the quadratic equation is the x=-b/2a+-sqrt(blah blah blah), which unneccessarily complicates the question. Factorisation (if you can see it) is often a nice way as well as you pointed out above, but for those who dont see the factorisation immediately, using the roots is quicker.
 

Drongoski

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deterministic - yr method is very good. I was more concerned with those who may not be very handy with the sum & product of roots property can still do it the regular way by solving quadratic equations via factorisation. But I forget that some students find factorisation of a quadratic can be a challenge as well.

Anyway you've been making very positive contributions so far and they have been greatly appreciated. Keep up the good work.
 

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