People with higher IQ 'Less Likely to Believe in God' (1 Viewer)

[housah0lic]

my god melanie is pedantic


anyway
statement is true..i think.
like i could argue the very basic argument for this but i'm sure it has been posted back right at the beginning of this thread and i'm just not the debating type

 

[KFunk]

Experiment on Prayers

A Report on the Papers:

1. "Positive Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer in a Coronary Care Unit Population"2
2. "A Randomized, Controlled Trial of the Effects of Remote, Intercessory Prayer on Outcomes in Patients Admitted to the Coronary Care Unit"3
3. Effects of remote, retroactive intercessory prayer on outcomes in patients with bloodstream infection: randomised controlled trial.4

1. "Positive Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer in a Coronary Care Unit Population"

... etc.

As stated in the 'does god exist' thread - you need to look at metanalyses given that they are available. See my post.

 

[Kwayera]

Further on that point, a recent study on the effect of intercessory prayer on cardiac patients:

Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: A multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer .

American Heart Journal , Volume 151 , Issue 4 , Pages 934 - 942

H . Benson , J . Dusek , J . Sherwood , P . Lam , C . Bethea , W . Carpenter , S . Levitsky , P . Hill , D . Clem, Jr. , M . Jain


Abstract

Background

Intercessory prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, but claims of benefits are not supported by well-controlled clinical trials. Prior studies have not addressed whether prayer itself or knowledge/certainty that prayer is being provided may influence outcome. We evaluated whether (1) receiving intercessory prayer or (2) being certain of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with uncomplicated recovery after coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery.


Methods

Patients at 6 US hospitals were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 groups: 604 received intercessory prayer after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; 597 did not receive intercessory prayer also after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; and 601 received intercessory prayer after being informed they would receive prayer. Intercessory prayer was provided for 14 days, starting the night before CABG. The primary outcome was presence of any complication within 30 days of CABG. Secondary outcomes were any major event and mortality.


Results

In the 2 groups uncertain about receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred in 52% (315/604) of patients who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those who did not (relative risk 1.02, 95% CI 0.92-1.15). Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% CI 1.02-1.28). Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups.


Conclusions

Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.

 

[TacoTerrorist]

Yeah... they're poor arguments, imo.

Your opinion is shit. They are fairly strong arguments given your ridiculous requirements. What are the atheist arguments? Check out the main ones:

-'hay guise we used 2 b munkees that meen ther r no god'
-'y u say ther r god when i culd say ther iz a pink invisibel fairy on ur shoulderr'
-'my dad rekons a molekule explode dor sumfin and liek made the planets and gaev me my intelekt'

Oh yeah, thanks for enforcing the stereotype of atheists being arrogant bigots: 'are you (melaniiiie) retarded?'

Creationists Believe the universe was created from nothing.

Yeah, and so do atheists who proport (is that a word?) the idea that an explosion (from matter that came out of nowhere) created an entire universe and gave birth to countless amazing species. Don't get me wrong, I don't like creationists and I'd rather be an atheist than a creationist, it just seems that atheists like to accuse others of being irrational when they are seemingly guilty of it themselves.

 

[Enteebee]

Your opinion is shit. They are fairly strong arguments given your ridiculous requirements. What are the atheist arguments? Check out the main ones:

-'hay guise we used 2 b munkees that meen ther r no god'
-'y u say ther r god when i culd say ther iz a pink invisibel fairy on ur shoulderr'
-'my dad rekons a molekule explode dor sumfin and liek made the planets and gaev me my intelekt'

Oh yeah, thanks for enforcing the stereotype of atheists being arrogant bigots: 'are you (melaniiiie) retarded?'



Yeah, and so do atheists who proport (is that a word?) the idea that an explosion (from matter that came out of nowhere) created an entire universe and gave birth to countless amazing species. Don't get me wrong, I don't like creationists and I'd rather be an atheist than a creationist, it just seems that atheists like to accuse others of being irrational when they are seemingly guilty of it themselves.

The second argument you mocked there is probably the only real atheist argument and it's actually a fairly good one. You can mock it all you like but tbh that's all I've ever seen from you when you enter this debate and it's pretty boring.

I don't know what all atheists are 'saying' in regard to the creation of the universe, but if you press me on it I'll say I do not know. I believe only in provisional knowledge and things such as 'what lies outside of our observable universe' etc are while perhaps important questions, for a creature stuck inside this universe and only knowing our observations, I'd hazard to say whatever guesses we make are almost entirely meaningless.

 

[chaldoking]

My old tutor had breast cancer, told she was going to die, went to a deacon, cured. Simple.

 

[Enteebee]

My old tutor had breast cancer, told she was going to die, went to a deacon, cured. Simple.

My dad had cancer, he ate a whole bunch of pasta, cured. Simple.

FSM works.

 

[TacoTerrorist]

^ Imo, the second claim is by far the weakest, for obvious reasons. With these religious debates, of course all I'm going to do is rip on atheists. The atheists are usually gang-banging the theists and I like to even it out a bit.

Wait, shouldn't you be an agnostic based on your second paragraph?

 

[chaldoking]

My dad had cancer, he ate a whole bunch of pasta, cured. Simple.

FSM works.

I thought you had a degree. Your comments show nothing of that kind. By the way the FSM is really lame - get to arguing at the crust of the things.

 

[Enteebee]

Ultimately I'm agnostic just as ultimately I'm a skeptic about all our knowledge. I believe in provisional truths i.e. If we existed in 1388 and after doing an extensive survey of the known lands found all swans were white, then it would be a provisional truth that all swans are white. Now obviously it turned out that in Western Australia there are some black swans, but that doesn't change (at least for me) the importance of provisional truth... as it's all I think we have.

 

[Numbers]

Enteebee - I agree. Us being the intelligent creatures we are, it's quite absurd that in this day and age we can still believe in something which neither can be proven nor seen. I'm also agnostic, and until conclusive evidence is provided to prove God's existence, or the existence of a higher being, I'll stick with my own beliefs. There's as much evidence to support the existence of God than there is to support the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

 

[TacoTerrorist]

I think you should read into Deism.

 

[Enteebee]

Enteebee - I agree. Us being the intelligent creatures we are, it's quite absurd that in this day and age we can still believe in something which neither can be proven nor seen. I'm also agnostic, and until conclusive evidence is provided to prove God's existence, or the existence of a higher being, I'll stick with my own beliefs. There's as much evidence to support the existence of God than there is to support the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I'd prefer the atheist label, if only because I would also say that no red zebra's exist. But tbh it matters little to me other than than as a somewhat political statement... Philosophically I see little difference between the unknown and the non-existent, that which is unknown to us may as well be non-existent.

 

[Numbers]

I'd prefer the atheist label, if only because I would also say that no red zebra's exist. But tbh it matters little to me other than than as a somewhat political statement... Philosophically I see little difference between the unknown and the non-existent, that which is unknown to us may as well be non-existent.

Exactly. A resource cannot be classed a resource until we've found it.

 

[chaldoking]

Knowledge makes the heart small.

 

[Numbers]

Knowledge makes the heart small.

Apparently Mountain Dew makes your penis small as well.

 

[scaredytiger]

Knowledge makes the heart small.

so you would deny truth, in search of salvation?

 

[TacoTerrorist]

Exactly. A resource cannot be classed a resource until we've found it.

Isn't that a bit near sighted? You could go on and on and never find what you would call evidence for God. Emprical evidence is not the only evidence, and to rely wholeheartedly on evidence for God that you will never find or accept is foolish.

 

[Numbers]

Isn't that a bit near sighted? You could go on and on and never find what you would call evidence for God. Emprical evidence is not the only evidence, and to rely wholeheartedly on evidence for God that you will never find or accept is foolish.

So I take it you believe in aliens, unicorns, centaurs, and other magical bullshit? It's not near sighted, it's realistic. People have claimed to have seen aliens, and in some cases can even provide 'evidence' to prove they've seen an alien, but we shun them away and call them insane because empirical evidence cannot be afforded. Just because they have a video tape of something they claim to be an alien, it doesn't mean it is an alien.

 

[scaredytiger]

Isn't that a bit near sighted? You could go on and on and never find what you would call evidence for God. Emprical evidence is not the only evidence, and to rely wholeheartedly on evidence for God that you will never find or accept is foolish.

im agnostic. i cannot see any way that a divine presence could logically punish me for using my ability to question.

its not that its not there, but knowing it is wont change my life. and i cannot "know" anyway.