Religion and morality: an illusion? (2 Viewers)

Scorch

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Some people like to think that morality and religion are somehow inherently linked, and that only religion has a role to play in answering or explaining morality in human society. They tend to like to think that religion, especially Christianity (for expediency's sake), have played a role in shaping societal ideas and concepts of morality for the better.

This is little more than an illusion. Religion is as much subject to a shifting societal discourse of morality as is anything other cultural force. In fact it is the ignoring of most of the moral judgments of the Bible, for instance, that makes belief in it a respectable option today.

But, one might say, the Bible orders all kinds of good things. Though shalt not kill, for instance? However if you look at it with any kind of complexity, such an idea developed thousands upon thousands of years before the Bible was written, out of a biological need for humanity to protect the social relations that keep it safe from other predators and allows competition for resources; without a discourse that renders the indiscriminate killing of fellow human beings in your social group unacceptable, such relationships break down, and so does humanity.

However because we reject the idea that the Bible is a supreme moral source, or even that it is handed down by a creator, does not mean that there is no meaning to be found in ideas of morality. Morals can be examined by way of utilitarianism, of biological interaction, of sociological necessity, of natural selection, or societal need; just because we are intelligent enough to discard the ideas of fairytales that claim everything was handed down perfectly by a divine being in examining and deriving meaning from morality doesn't necessarily mean that everything is fine and morally supportable; only a simpleton would think such things.

So I suppose this is a general introduction to a discussion of these issues.
 

Scorch

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Yes, thank you for that completely pointless link; my comments had a far more specific focus, however.
 
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Morality ought to be something that an individual interacts with on a fundamental level. Religion removes this interaction.

It removes the responsibility to figure out where they stand. The process of assessing a situation both rationally and emotionally is superseded by this 'spiritual' dictation of what is right or wrong.
 

Omie Jay

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religion is like a set of rules that tell us what is good and what is bad.

people should know for themself what is good and what isnt, if someone needs to follow certain morals only because a book told them to (and not for the sake of being a good person), then that's a bit silly, and that kinda says something about the person (if u cant tell right from wrong yourself, then there is something wrong with you).
people can grow up and live their lives as an athiest, and still be someone with great morals.

i guess religion is a way of rewarding/punishing people according to the decisions they make in live regarding morals (for those who believe in religion).

edit: so what is this thread actually about? the (apparent) interrelation between religion and moralality?
 
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Lukybear

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The argument crumbles on the bases of your assumption to general morality, using the examples of murder
such an idea developed thousands upon thousands of years before the Bible was written, out of a biological need for humanity to protect the social relations that keep it safe from other predators and allows competition for resources; without a discourse that renders the indiscriminate killing of fellow human beings in your social group unacceptable, such relationships break down, and so does humanity.
Your argument states that morality does not stem from religion, assuming it is natural and occurs via evolution. (The two pathways of the existence of humanity). Unless there is empirical proof, scientific, that showcases existence of morality via evolution then all this is nothing but speculation.

What I mean by this is the whole definition of morality, that is understood by humanity. This includes those basic moral principles, but also include self sacrifice, monogamy and other principles that much part of society considers "moral".
 
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What i dont like is how you assume that morality stems froms biology and nature. I mean there are plenty of examples in nature that says otherwise. What we may consider as immoraly is conducted thousands of times in the wild. Babies being eaten by mother, multiple partners etc... And from here your argument crumbles.

Unless you offer us truly biological and scientific evidence that suggest the development of development as innate in nature this is all speculation and nothing else.
Edit your post so it makes sense.
 

Omie Jay

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yeah but those animals in nature dont have a sophisticated brain like us humans do.

i know of sharks who eat their young, but what about chimps? they're like the closest to humans in terms of sophisticated brains (i think) and they dont eat their young, they live in families and stuff.

and as for multiple partners, i'm pretty animals dont feel "love" or the need for 1 partner, lol.

u cant really compare humans to other animals in the wild, because our brains work in totally different ways.

i think he means OUR biology, as in the history of the human race since before the religious books were revealed.
 

Scorch

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edit: so what is this thread actually about? the (apparent) interrelation between religion and moralality?
More or less. The fact that this relationship and monopoly is little more than an illusion.

What i dont like is how you assume that morality stems froms biology and nature. I mean there are plenty of examples in nature that says otherwise. What we may consider as immoraly is conducted thousands of times in the wild. Babies being eaten by mother, multiple partners etc... And from here your argument crumbles.

Unless you offer us truly biological and scientific evidence that suggest the development of development as innate in nature this is all speculation and nothing else.
This makes no sense. Please re-read my post, re-acquaint yourself with the English language and try again.
 

Scorch

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You have edited your post:
The argument crumbles on the bases of your assumption to general morality, using the examples of murder

Your argument states that morality does not stem from religion, assuming it is natural and occurs via evolution. (The two pathways of the existence of humanity). Unless there is empirical proof, scientific, that showcases existence of morality via evolution then all this is nothing but speculation.

What I mean by this is the whole definition of morality, that is understood by humanity. This includes those basic moral principles, but also include self sacrifice, monogamy and other principles that much part of society considers "moral".
Slightly more readable, no less idiotic. There is no proof to show that humanity did not, of their own accord and by an entirely explicable process, did not develop the idea that murder is bad before the myth of the 10 commandments developed in the 7th century BC?

Can you please be more specific in pointing out what you'd like 'proof' of?
 

Lukybear

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yeah but those animals in nature dont have a sophisticated brain like us humans do.

i know of sharks who eat their young, but what about chimps? they're like the closest to humans in terms of sophisticated brains (i think) and they dont eat their young, they live in families and stuff.

and as for multiple partners, i'm pretty animals dont feel "love" or the need for 1 partner, lol.

u cant really compare humans to other animals in the wild, because our brains work in totally different ways.

i think he means OUR biology, as in the history of the human race since before the religious books were revealed.
In any sense our consciousness is superior to that of animals. But the pathway of development is still the same, i.e. via evolution. If morality did develop on its own, according to thread starter, it must developed via evolution.

From this we can conclude that similar behavioral characteristics should exist naturally in the wild.

And also, if murder does not occur, it does NOT indicate evidence of morality. It might just be; "he is my kind, if i attack him for food, his strength is equal to mine, thus I will be damaged if i attack, hence I will not attack him".

Morality, strictly in the human sense is absolute and stems from the thought process. It is the recognition that this is wrong and that is right.
 

Lukybear

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You have edited your post:


Slightly more readable, no less idiotic. There is no proof to show that humanity did not, of their own accord and by an entirely explicable process, did not develop the idea that murder is bad before the myth of the 10 commandments developed in the 7th century BC?

Can you please be more specific in pointing out what you'd like 'proof' of?
Well as said more often, the honous is on you.

What I'd like to see is the existence of moral behavioral characteristic such as altruism amongst many species of organisms.

Of course that is dependent upon the definition that needs to be decided you.
 

Scorch

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In any sense our consciousness is superior to that of animals. But the pathway of development is still the same, i.e. via evolution. If morality did develop on its own, according to thread starter, it must developed via evolution.

From this we can conclude that similar behavioral characteristics should exist naturally in the wild.

And also, if murder does not occur, it does NOT indicate evidence of morality. It might just be; "he is my kind, if i attack him for food, his strength is equal to mine, thus I will be damaged if i attack, hence I will not attack him".

Morality, strictly in the human sense is absolute and stems from the thought process. It is the recognition that this is wrong and that is right.
No.

Evolution does not attempt to explain the development of consciousness, sentience and higher forms of intelligence, and nor did I. I did, however, point out that it is rather obvious that morality evolves from the engagement of humanity, in possession of this consciousness, with the biological facts that frame its existence.

Well as said more often, the honous is on you.

What I'd like to see is the existence of moral behavioral characteristic such as altruism amongst many species of organisms.

Of course that is dependent upon the definition that needs to be decided you.
Not in the slightest. I am claiming that morality developed out of a need to facilitate smooth functioning of the social relationships that keep humanity safe on a social and individual level, and this is a logical, natural and observable fact to anyone with an open mind and half a brain. You are claiming that a magical fairy man decided 3000 years ago that humans shouldn't kill and a bunch of other barbaric things and that's where morality comes from.
 
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Lukybear

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Evolution does not attempt to explain the development of consciousness, sentience and higher forms of intelligence, and nor did I. I did, however, point out that it is rather obvious that morality evolves from the engagement of humanity, in possession of this consciousness, with the biological facts that frame its existence.
There is still a need to define morality. And until then we will be arguing about different items with different perspectives.
 
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Well as said more often, the honous is on you.

What I'd like to see is the existence of moral behavioral characteristic such as altruism amongst many species of organisms.

Of course that is dependent upon the definition that needs to be decided you.
First of all, it is 'onus'.

Second, look at philosophers from Ancient Greece and China. They didn't believe in your God.
 

0bs3n3

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Scorch you aren't even old enough to drive. You aren't going to convince anyone.

If people saw you irl they would laugh.
 
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Scorch you aren't even old enough to drive. You aren't going to convince anyone.

If people saw you irl they would laugh.
I would belt the shit out of that cunt
so fucking annoying.,
Prob some 5 ft skinny pimple infested shit.
This is what would happen if i saw scorch
Scorch: I'm so cool, Religon is gay blah blah,
Me: Shut up
Scorch: I do Bachelor of Arts
Me: Thats cunt! you fucking dead!
RIP Scorch
 

tommykins

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I just can't fathom as to why people can't comprehend that years (read: thousands) of social interaction amongst humans, we'd soon realise that within our instincts of survival and maintaining the existence of our species, we'd realise that it's better to work with each other (ie. not kill each other/steal to cause conflict etc.) than to be against each other?

Is it really that hard?

It's like, I give you a puzzle/game to play, you play it for ages and soon enough you realise the best 'methods' to continue playing this 'game'.
 

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