religion and sex before marriage - REDONE (2 Viewers)

[meshy]

1. Social factors - conservative nations dont really accept divorce...thats why the divorce rate is low. People would prefer to live in unsatisfying marriages at the risk of the divorce which is socially unacceptable in conservative natiions (How could have god got it so wrong...if god never gets it wrong married couples should always be happy)

Unsatisfying marriages? Perhaps if they are somehow unsatisfied with their marriage they opt to work it out instead of throwing in the towel, western style.

It should be socially unacceptable in all nations, only in the most extreme cases do I see divorce as acceptable (e.g. one partner abusing the other, and refusing to change). It's got nothing to do with God, moreso that when you make a lifetime commitment, you make a lifetime commitment.

2. Yes so people learn....sexuality is difficult...i know the examples i gave before are extreme but there is a chance that your partner will want it and like it in a certian way...a way that you do not want to provide because maybe you think its disgusting or base?

They were extreme! The reason things are labelled fetishes are because they are abnormal, they go against the norm.

I think if both partners loved each other, they could compromise in such a situation, instead of blindly following their urges at every moment of their married life.

 

[Wilmo]

kikiki... its odd, because most of our conversations dont mean to head in that direction.

I agree with mushy that it should be the social norm for divorce to be the last resort. It would be good if they were harder to get so people couldnt apply for one after a fight.

Divorce doesnt really have much to do with God. You said that the conservative nations have lower divorce rates... i find it odd how the major "christian" nations such as USA, England and Australia have very high divorce rates. The bible really only gives 2 reasons for divorce: Adultery and.... I think abusive relationships i cant remember... but they were big things.

Anyway, id like to see if the statistic matched up. I.E. Christians divorced for adulter/abuse and those divorced for other reasons.

Im not saying divorce doesnt have a place in society... but i think people think of it as a get out of jail free card in a way.

 

[Tommy_Lamp]

i dont believe that doing a thing like sex b4 marriage will earn you eternal damnation, me thinks you have to do something pretty serious for that

 

[meshy]

Divorce doesnt really have much to do with God. You said that the conservative nations have lower divorce rates... i find it odd how the major "christian" nations such as USA, England and Australia have very high divorce rates. The bible really only gives 2 reasons for divorce: Adultery and.... I think abusive relationships i cant remember... but they were big things.

Yeh but Christian doesn't = conservative nations.

Conservative = more collectivist cultures, e.g. eastern/asian etc.

 

[Wilmo]

i know... thats why i was talking about christian nations... not conservative ones

 

[twiddla]

I'd like to back wilmo here - what asqy is saying is the church forces us into a pattern of thinking and acting to quote he says it is "dictating how we act". This is totally and utterly untrue - what we have in the church is from the Bible is a set of guidlines that will help us with our lives and our relationship with God - it is breaking that relationship with God that is the thing that counts and the way we act usually is how this happens- except God says ok i love u enough to forgive you for all those travesties against me and thus we get to have an eternal life in heaven - however he says that well itll be better for the relationship if u change your ways but he'll still forgive all your sins against him even if u don't,

Sex before marriage is one of these things that will break this relationship cos it is alot more shallow than Gods love yet it may come to seem alot more important

marriage is a sign of a prioritisation and commitment where you have agreed to put you wife/husband second only after God - and so thus sex the thing that is most likely to take our mind off God can now be accepted because it is in an environment where it is not the be all and end all that human society sees it as
a christian couples love in its purest form will enable both to grow in christ and marriage reaffirms this strong bond between man, woman and God -whereas sex will not help us in this pursuit

 

[jack sparrow]

keep the post length down mateys.

ur ALL tards

arrrrrrr savvy

 

[osk]

religion is for chumps

How r ya Neeja?

I can only defend my religion, Christianity, against such a claim. Yes, you have a reason to be worried about religion used as a process of manipulation...this has happened many times in history. However, it is wrong to judge religion because of the activities of men who have used religion as a means of personal gain or manipulation.

Becoming a Christian involves personal choice. A Christian is someone who has put their faith in Jesus Christ. How can such faith be achieved when it is agressively or manipulatively forced upon someone? Before I became a Christian, I thoroughly examined what it had to offer.....I found I was able to make sense of the chaos the world is in, suddenly death has lost its sting for me. Had I not been attracted to these ideas, I would have rejected them. My turn to Christ was DEFINATELY not a matter someone threatening, or bullying. It was decided in my heart.

Think about it, are the ways in which a science lesson or a religious sermon presented really that different. In both cases, a certain viewpoint is being put forward. Could I not accuse you of being indoctrinated by a view of atheism? Look at society.....there are TV adds, magazines, fashion designers all putting forward views on what is acceptable and what is not. Are the people who refuse religion really any stronger than those who accept it? It would be quite fair to say that if someone does not have God as a guideline for life....they are not without an alternative....society and its expectations replace the role of God. Yet people still find it more profitable to label religious teaching as something evil and manipulative.

We NEED to a certain extent submit and humble ourselves to the opinions or viepoints of others if we are to learn anything at all. You yourself were at one stage taught how to read and write. You were a young child, a chump, you were vulnerable and in need of education.

The great scientist and inventor Thomas Edison once stated "It would be a great achivement if any one human were to know 1% of what there is to know". When we consider the amount of knowledge to be gained, and how much we as humans actually know, it becomes apparent that we are in no position to make final or conclusive judgements.

God loves you so much, Neeja, and I pray that one day you will realise this and realise that Christianity is not about manipulation, about degrading a human's ability to think. It is about making sure that this world, which you would have to agree is becoming more and more pain filled and bloody, is not our last place of residence.

God bless you!

 

[Sophie777]

yes, i have the urge to 'purge' an opinion, so here it is! Any discussion or debate stimulated from this will be interesting...

For me, "no sex b4 marriage" is a principle where both religious belief and common sense become one. i believe that God wants me to save myself for the right person, because only then can the relationship be truly fulfilling. It also saves a lot of hassles -- and i guess since God created us, then He knows what will work best for us.

The way i see it, sexual relations are a sacred part of the marriage relationship and can only be considered good and wholesome within the context of marriage, because marriage, unlike dating, has the commitment factor. How many problems in society would be solved if everyone abstained from sex until they married! Here's a few:

*no unwanted teenage pregnancies
*sexually transmitted diseases would become much less of a problem
*higher value placed on marriage, therefore increased commitment between parties entering a marriage relationship. This could, in turn, lead to a decreasing incidence of adultery and divorce in society.


i have a few friends who have slept with their boyfriends, thinking they were in a 'serious' relationship, yet have since broken up and wish they'd never done it.

in conclusion: true love waits

The way I see it- God does not know best. If we hypothetically say that he does exist, then he has not had any influence on the world in many years, yet people still take the bible as the sacred word on how we should go about our lives. Frankly, the world has changed and I believe that the bible set out to say no sex before you are married as there was no such thing as contraception and it wouldn't have been fair to have kids running around everywhere who don't know if they're all somehow related.

It is quite amazing that christians can judge 'sex' as something that should be saved for marriage just because this was Gods plan thousands of years ago. HELLO, GOD ISN'T HERE ANYMORE. I am in a secure relationship of almost 3 years and I find that marriage is merely a way of christians feeling ok about sharing a sexual experience and that in reality it makes no difference on whether the experience is more fulfilling. If you love someone, then you love them and sex is the means by which we can become the closest possible to eachother. If people learn to accept that sex has become something different to everyone then this argument wouldn't need to even exist. It is pleasurable, we have ways of stopping ourselves getting pregnant from it and ways- if you are responsible- of preventing STD'S hence now it has become physically possible to share sex with great risk of these things then the bible should change. I say we get a big highlighter and go through all the parts of the bible that have become void. You have every right not to have sex before you are married but the experience becoming more special is only in your mind and I guarantee that it will be no more fulfilling than everytime I make love.

 

[Sophie777]

How r ya Neeja?

I can only defend my religion, Christianity, against such a claim. Yes, you have a reason to be worried about religion used as a process of manipulation...this has happened many times in history. However, it is wrong to judge religion because of the activities of men who have used religion as a means of personal gain or manipulation.

Becoming a Christian involves personal choice. A Christian is someone who has put their faith in Jesus Christ. How can such faith be achieved when it is agressively or manipulatively forced upon someone? Before I became a Christian, I thoroughly examined what it had to offer.....I found I was able to make sense of the chaos the world is in, suddenly death has lost its sting for me. Had I not been attracted to these ideas, I would have rejected them. My turn to Christ was DEFINATELY not a matter someone threatening, or bullying. It was decided in my heart.

Think about it, are the ways in which a science lesson or a religious sermon presented really that different. In both cases, a certain viewpoint is being put forward. Could I not accuse you of being indoctrinated by a view of atheism? Look at society.....there are TV adds, magazines, fashion designers all putting forward views on what is acceptable and what is not. Are the people who refuse religion really any stronger than those who accept it? It would be quite fair to say that if someone does not have God as a guideline for life....they are not without an alternative....society and its expectations replace the role of God. Yet people still find it more profitable to label religious teaching as something evil and manipulative.

We NEED to a certain extent submit and humble ourselves to the opinions or viepoints of others if we are to learn anything at all. You yourself were at one stage taught how to read and write. You were a young child, a chump, you were vulnerable and in need of education.

The great scientist and inventor Thomas Edison once stated "It would be a great achivement if any one human were to know 1% of what there is to know". When we consider the amount of knowledge to be gained, and how much we as humans actually know, it becomes apparent that we are in no position to make final or conclusive judgements.

God loves you so much, Neeja, and I pray that one day you will realise this and realise that Christianity is not about manipulation, about degrading a human's ability to think. It is about making sure that this world, which you would have to agree is becoming more and more pain filled and bloody, is not our last place of residence.

God bless you!

Don't you think that in a way, becoming a christian because you feared death and needed an explanation for the world is you accepting that you actually didn't have faith at all but you turned to christianity for answers, as a means of escaping the harsh reality of the world humans have created?

 

[Sophie777]

Oh and just a question that I want answered with LOGIC.

If christianity is correct- how do you logically know this?

Then, why are there so many different religions? How can these people ALL be wrong and you be right? And, if this is the case, then it must be pretty simple to make up an entire religion and force people to follow it due to fear. Hence, couldn't then christianity be made up? Or whatever religion you believe to be true. And if you have any doubt in the truth of your religion if you operate on LOGIC, then how can you truly have faith?

 

[ur_inner_child]

Oh and just a question that I want answered with LOGIC.

If christianity is correct- how do you logically know this?

Then, why are there so many different religions? How can these people ALL be wrong and you be right? And, if this is the case, then it must be pretty simple to make up an entire religion and force people to follow it due to fear. Hence, couldn't then christianity be made up? Or whatever religion you believe to be true. And if you have any doubt in the truth of your religion if you operate on LOGIC, then how can you truly have faith?

I think most modern christians are pretty open minded now. TO LOGICALLY ANSWER IT: Why should we deal with a spiritual choice through logic? I don't think anything that governs spirituality can be handled so simply through logic - its a faith without solid proof, but who cares? Not everything requires proof.

On another note: Its weird the way in which a lot of atheists condemn religion for its faults. I use to be atheist too but think of Lisa Simpson and her encounter with the history of Jebediah Springfield? As long as people look to Christianity for a way to find hope, then leave them to do so. It's just an alternative that atheists wouldn't take.

I'm embaressed with the way some christians pressure you to convert, but that's a bit generalising to think all christians do that.

 

[Sophie777]

Because Logic is needed to base life choices on. You can't condemn others belief to have sex before marriage or have total faith that is require to believe in God if you can recognise that it is logically unsound or that you can't find logic to explain it.

You can't answer my question by saying 'why should be have to find logic?' ahh... because with scientific advancements and proof otherwise you need somehow to find some proof for your belief. If evolutionists say the big bang discredits religion then what do you say to that? Nothing? You say that you just believe it, just because? Can I say I hate black people and have no logical reason as to why? No, that would be blind racism.

I am only an atheist because, like Nietzsche, i see no value in hiding pain by religion. I'm going to face the world and live for the 80-100 years that I live just for living- not for God, or for eternal life. By looking forward to the afterlife, you can't possible value or experience life on earth.

 

[Sophie777]

I'm sick of feeling looked down upon by the christians around me that I know. I just want people to accept that no belief based on a 'spiritual choice' rather than logic can possible be more valuable than that based on numbers, science, dates and facts. Just because you say you have 'eternal life' and a relationship with God does not make you a better person. Being a good person is about being a good person, not being a christian.

I am not attacking you, just attacking the people that make me angry that I know.

 

[ur_inner_child]

Because Logic is needed to base life choices on. You can't condemn others belief to have sex before marriage or have total faith that is require to believe in God if you can recognise that it is logically unsound or that you can't find logic to explain it.

You can't answer my question by saying 'why should be have to find logic?' ahh... because with scientific advancements and proof otherwise you need somehow to find some proof for your belief. If evolutionists say the big bang discredits religion then what do you say to that? Nothing? You say that you just believe it, just because? Can I say I hate black people and have no logical reason as to why? No, that would be blind racism.

I am only an atheist because, like Nietzsche, i see no value in hiding pain by religion. I'm going to face the world and live for the 80-100 years that I live just for living- not for God, or for eternal life. By looking forward to the afterlife, you can't possible value or experience life on earth.

So you're saying that we should abandon our faith because there's no logic in it??? I find THAT illogical lol.

Good arguement, though comparing religion with racism is slightly demeaning. Yes, Christianity has its faults, such as its patriarchy, its homophobia, its pure "out-datedness" for the person in the 21st century - yet it evolves. I dont think the media has pointed this out except through books.

I personally get irritated with people (not you) that say "if it was just Adam and Eve, doesn't that mean we're all related and we engage in incest???" It just means that we are part of the same "family" in a broad sense, despite race etc, and that we should treat each other with respect. (Modern Christianity).

Its a set of morals and constructs. I like deconstructing morals too, but then again, if Mother Theresa found it good enough to help others, if it gave people hope or the need to help others in need (financially, spiritually) then LOGICALLY, something that does good shouldnt be all that bad.

Yes there are some bad sides, but I guess everything does. Its freedom of choice. I choose to be christian, and I like it, it means a lot to me. logically, I think thats fine.

Not saying your arguement isnt valid. I love religious debates because I've been in both sides of the spectrum. Personally, sex before marriage, I don't particularly agree with that but the construct I guess was intially to make sure people don't have random sex, but only do it because of love. Makes sense, although I don't agree with it.

 

[ur_inner_child]

I'm sick of feeling looked down upon by the christians around me that I know. I just want people to accept that no belief based on a 'spiritual choice' rather than logic can possible be more valuable than that based on numbers, science, dates and facts. Just because you say you have 'eternal life' and a relationship with God does not make you a better person. Being a good person is about being a good person, not being a christian.

I am not attacking you, just attacking the people that make me angry that I know.

Lol, sophie777 I've seen your other arguements and believe me I don't look down on you. I believe that atheists are very wise in their decision. They are fully aware of the constructs and power that religion has over people. I totally respect your decision, and many more christians do that you think you know.

 

[Sophie777]

I wasn't comparing religion to racism at all. I know it definitely came across that way. What I meant was the lack of logic is similar. No, you don't have to and shouldn't have to abandon your faith at all. Do what you will and what you want. As long as everyone just does their own thing and doesn't try to either force or influence others or think they are more valuable or more correct then it would all be fine.

I'm not an atheist by the way.

I believe in something. I find it doesn't make sense that there is nothing there, there is something, we don't live in a cosmic void that is impossible. I just believe that something devised thousands of years ago with no knowledge of science or the world doesn't provide answers for me. It just can't. I want real answers, real proof from something today based on modern liberal values.

 

[Sophie777]

By liberal I don't mean the bastard with the strange eyebrows i.e. Howard.

 

[lukebennett]

So you're saying that we should abandon our faith because there's no logic in it??? I find THAT illogical lol.

Good arguement, though comparing religion with racism is slightly demeaning. Yes, Christianity has its faults, such as its patriarchy, its homophobia, its pure "out-datedness" for the person in the 21st century - yet it evolves. I dont think the media has pointed this out except through books.

I personally get irritated with people (not you) that say "if it was just Adam and Eve, doesn't that mean we're all related and we engage in incest???" It just means that we are part of the same "family" in a broad sense, despite race etc, and that we should treat each other with respect. (Modern Christianity).

Its a set of morals and constructs. I like deconstructing morals too, but then again, if Mother Theresa found it good enough to help others, if it gave people hope or the need to help others in need (financially, spiritually) then LOGICALLY, something that does good shouldnt be all that bad.

Yes there are some bad sides, but I guess everything does. Its freedom of choice. I choose to be christian, and I like it, it means a lot to me. logically, I think thats fine.

Not saying your arguement isnt valid. I love religious debates because I've been in both sides of the spectrum. Personally, sex before marriage, I don't particularly agree with that but the construct I guess was intially to make sure people don't have random sex, but only do it because of love. Makes sense, although I don't agree with it.

In the end modern day christianity has huge flaws. this isnt to say belief in God and jesus is wrong though. christianity is a religion which these days has had a whole lot of added culture which does look and non christians condescendingly (depending on the christian).

If you are not a christian it is fair enough that you may have sex before marriage,. it is also wrong for people to look down on you for having sex before marriage if you are not breaking any rules in your belief system. i personally (christian or non christian) would wait for atleast a long term relationship that would lead to inevitable marriage till i have sex.

i just look down on some people (i shouldnt because it is their business) who misuse their bodies and have sex with heaps of random people that they dont even know. i think this cheapens people. Save it for someone special.

 

[ur_inner_child]

In the end modern day christianity has huge flaws. this isnt to say belief in God and jesus is wrong though. christianity is a religion which these days has had a whole lot of added culture which does look and non christians condescendingly (depending on the christian).

If you are not a christian it is fair enough that you may have sex before marriage,. it is also wrong for people to look down on you for having sex before marriage if you are not breaking any rules in your belief system. i personally (christian or non christian) would wait for atleast a long term relationship that would lead to inevitable marriage till i have sex.

i just look down on some people (i shouldnt because it is their business) who misuse their bodies and have sex with heaps of random people that they dont even know. i think this cheapens people. Save it for someone special.

totally agree with the sex before marriage looking down etc... its weird. Save it for someone special - someone you love....

Some say that the person you marry is your true love - the why not sex after marriage?

Personally, I have no frikin clue.

Its a weird and complex thing but mehhhh. Each to their own.