scaling english standard, etc. (1 Viewer)

[Lazarus]

A few technical clarifications on those clarifications...

-NOT ALL HSC students would want to receive a UAI (so not all students have their marks are scaled)
...
scaling only applies to students who wish to have a UAI and HSC students who do not wish to have a UAI would be disadvantaged.

All students are included in the scaling procedures whether they want a UAI or not.

In accordance to the Board of Studies and the UAC, English Standard is scaled lower than Advanced since the scaled mean for Standard is slightly lower than the scaled mean of Advanced (which is usually 50.0).

Standard is not scaled lower than Advanced. They are scaled in exactly the same way. The fact that Standard has a lower scaled mean than Advanced is entirely because Standard students simply don't, on average, do as well as the Advanced students. This is to be expected.

Also, the maximum UAI that can be achieved doing English Standard would be 99.95

Those figures do not correspond to the maximum possible UAIs that can be achieved. There are no UAI caps. The statistics only tell you what the top UAI was for a student taking that course in a particular year. A better student could have obtained a higher UAI.

You've otherwise provided sound advice.

 

[doingHSC]

English Standard is scaled.


Most of your question, we cannot give a definite answer as no one really knows.

Imagine this hypothetical situation.

Student A is doing English Standard and attained a RAW mark of 75 for his HSC.

Student B is doing English Advanced and attained a RAW mark of 75 for his HSC as well.

Student A sees his ALIGNED HSC mark as 79.
Student B sees his ALIGNED HSC mark as 85.

It is these aligned marks we see that make us think of these conclusions that perhaps the board of studies don't like english standard students achieve band 6's. Or they mark harder just to annoy us.

I recall reading somewhere that English standard doesn't align as well as English advanced. In that example, both students will achieve the same scaled mark even if their aligned mark was different. It is the raw mark that is mainly important to us, so even if an advanced student achieves a high mark, that may not necesarilly be better off.

hey, I just put 76 aligned mark for standard and advanced english in SAM. standard got scaled to 29.7/50 and advanced to 30.5/50. Now I'm totally lost.

 

[A l]

Standard is not scaled lower than Advanced. They are scaled in exactly the same way. The fact that Standard has a lower scaled mean than Advanced is entirely because Standard students simply don't, on average, do as well as the Advanced students. This is to be expected.

If Standard and Advanced English are scaled exactly the same way then what stops the Advanced English students from becoming disadvantaged?
(definitely not tougher standards set in Standard English because I have already checked on the Board Of Studies website that each performance band descriptor in both English Advanced and English Standard are exactly the same)
www.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/syllabus_hsc/pdf_doc/english_dpbs.pdf

 

[raymes]

geez...this was a dead post from nearly a year ago lol

from memory the answer to that question, AI, is that the standard course, by nature, does not allow students to demonstrate the level of skill that advanced students can achieve - After all, the standard course is constructed for lower level students. For example, lets say general maths and mathematics courses were scaled the same way. Those students doing general would never be able to show the level of ability of those doing mathematics due to the standard of questions asked. Of course these two courses are scaled differently and it seems to me that the reason the board scales english advanced and standard the same way as opposed to the different levels of maths is that english is compulsary and hence they cant be seen to be disadvantaging those students who do standard, which of course they arent.

 

[Lazarus]

If Standard and Advanced English are scaled exactly the same way then what stops the Advanced English students from becoming disadvantaged?

Don't confuse aligning with scaling. (See <a href="/other/flowchart.pdf">this flowchart</a>.)

They are scaled in exactly the same way. They are not aligned in the same way.

The two courses have different raw band cut-offs. A raw mark in Standard might be aligned to Band 4, but the same raw mark in Advanced might be aligned to Band 5 - i.e. the two aligned marks are different. But because both courses are scaled in the same way, that single raw mark ends up as the same scaled mark in both courses.

Only scaled marks influence students' UAIs; not aligned marks.

 

[doingHSC]

Don't confuse aligning with scaling. (See <a href="/other/flowchart.pdf">this flowchart</a>.)

They are scaled in exactly the same way. They are not aligned in the same way.

The two courses have different raw band cut-offs. A raw mark in Standard might be aligned to Band 4, but the same raw mark in Advanced might be aligned to Band 5 - i.e. the two aligned marks are different. But because both courses are scaled in the same way, that single raw mark ends up as the same scaled mark in both courses.

Only scaled marks influence students' UAIs; not aligned marks.

hey, I just put 76 aligned mark for standard and advanced english in SAM. standard got scaled to 29.7/50 and advanced to 30.5/50. Now I'm totally lost.

shouldnt the scaled mark of standard english be higher than it got? Cos i put 76 as alligned mark, meaning the person in standard achieved higher raw mark ("A raw mark in Standard might be aligned to Band 4, but the same raw mark in Advanced might be aligned to Band 5 - i.e. the two aligned marks are different") but still the standard person got lower scaled mark. I don't understand that. Is there some error or is it me totally confused?

 

[A l]

Don't confuse aligning with scaling. (See <a href="/other/flowchart.pdf">this flowchart</a>.)

They are scaled in exactly the same way. They are not aligned in the same way.

The two courses have different raw band cut-offs. A raw mark in Standard might be aligned to Band 4, but the same raw mark in Advanced might be aligned to Band 5 - i.e. the two aligned marks are different. But because both courses are scaled in the same way, that single raw mark ends up as the same scaled mark in both courses.

Only scaled marks influence students' UAIs; not aligned marks.

OK you just lost me here.

Knowing that raw HSC marks only contribute to scaling, answer these questions to clear any doubts:

If Student A and Student B had identical courses for the HSC except in English, Student A does English Advanced and Student B does English Standard. If they both score identical marks for every subject and say Student A scored a raw HSC mark of 85 in English Advanced and Student B scored a raw HSC mark of 85 in English Standard. Who would achieve the higher UAI and by how much if it were say 2003? Would the difference be significant or not?

Why should a student who is FAIRLY good at English choose Advanced over Standard other than personal/career interests?
(i.e. Why would someone choose Advanced which they would be likely to score average rather than Standard, which they would be likely to top)

 

[Lazarus]

If they both score identical marks for every subject and say Student A scored a raw HSC mark of 85 in English Advanced and Student B scored a raw HSC mark of 85 in English Standard. Who would achieve the higher UAI and by how much if it were say 2003? Would the difference be significant or not?

There would be no difference. They would receive exactly the same UAIs.

However, the 'aligned' marks they receive from the Board for English would be different. This doesn't matter though, because they're not used for UAI purposes.

Why should a student who is FAIRLY good at English choose Advanced over Standard other than personal/career interests?
(i.e. Why would someone choose Advanced which they would be likely to score average rather than Standard, which they would be likely to top)

Education isn't about maximising marks.

If you are a capable student and you think you would enjoy the Advanced course, you should take it. If you hate English, do Standard. Students should take the course that is the most appropriate choice for them.

There is no guarantee that dropping down to Standard will mean you top the course.

The statistics indicate that the students who top Standard are of the same ability as those who are placed in the top 1 - 2% of Advanced students.

 

[doingHSC]

if they're scaled the same, then why is it in SAM, standard english is scaled lower?

 

[Lazarus]

It's not. It just looks like it is, because you're misunderstanding what is going on.

You can't just put a mark of 80 for both Standard and Advanced into SAM to see which scales better. These are aligned marks. A mark of 80 in Standard means something completely different to a mark of 80 in Advanced - and they don't correspond to the same raw mark.

 

[doingHSC]

yeah i think I'll just stop worrying about this, its too complicated. thnks for reply

 

[Dimsimmer]

has anyone thought of asking the UAC or the Board of Studies or the University or Universities who calculate the UAI about this

 

[Lazarus]

The questions posed in this thread have been asked countless times before.

We've also answered them countless times before.

Search the forums and you'll find the information you seek.

 

[A l]

There would be no difference. They would receive exactly the same UAIs.
However, the 'aligned' marks they receive from the Board for English would be different. This doesn't matter though, because they're not used for UAI purposes.

So a student's ranking in the English Standard course or a student's ranking in the English Advanced course is modified to become a ranking of English in the whole state.
Am I correct?


[Too bad there isn't a course called English Intermediate like Mathematics Intermediate in Year 10 lol!]

 

[Lazarus]

Yes, that's about right.

The marks from both courses are combined.