School funding (2 Viewers)

[kirabolton]

urgh i have to agree with wikiwiki's logic - sigh -

Everybody does have the same right to free education, it shouldn't really matter how much your parents earn.

I also think one of the biggest problems is the standard of teachers at public schools. I don't really blame teachers for leaving public schools, i know if i was one and i got paid more at a private i would leave but it still boils down to government funding. And yeah i know private school kids pay for that better education, but is that really fair? If everyone is entitled to free education despite how little or how much their parents earn isn't everyone entitled to a certain standard of teaching? So what if your getting cheap education, if your teachers are fresh out of Uni with absoloutely no idea how to handle we unruly public schoolians then it's not really fair is it. I think this is one good thing about private schools, they do really put education first but as i've said before it's all good and fine if you can afford it.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Absolutely not.

Means testing is a stupid idea.

So I wouldn't have been able to go to a selective school because my parents earn more than $X a year?

Don't i have the same right to free education that others do?

The entire point of free education and indeed most government services is that you get the same treatment irrespective of your background.

I say properly fund public schools, and then do what we currently do and fund private schools based on the amount of students they have. If the public education system was properly funded then private schools would be a less appealing option to most parents.

No mate, because a large number of students at school X's parents are wealthy and the school is able to get more private contributions from these parents, then the school shouldn't be as well funded

 

[chelzmalee]

The deal is, pay $20,000 a year for the same education $80 a year will get you. No matter how much money you invest in a kid, they will only be as smart as they can be. That is, if they study their arses off all thru year 12, and strive for the best, they can achieve the best. I refer to Charles Prestige-King, who topped Extension 2 english last year in the HSC. Public school, $80/yr in fees, from the country. 50/50.

Just cause you pay $20,000 a year, doesn't mean you're going to be better off at the end of the day. Most of the kids whose parents pay that kind of money already have the talent, they just need it moulded.

 

[MuffinMan]

yeh but i heard private schools have better facilities

 

[Not-That-Bright]

sometimes, sometimes not.

 

[chelzmalee]

sometimes, sometimes not.

Very good point.

I guess it depends on whether you feel you need that extra 3 gyms and 4 swimming pools.

 

[kirabolton]

Yeah, whatever. I don't believe the standards have anything to do with it - you can only do so much with average or worse students. Parents are morons if they think that their kid will magically become smarter or get success in life because of what high school they send them too.

Gee that's optimistic! You know originally i thought might know what you were talking about but after reading that comment it becomes clear your just an idiot. Do you really think that the learning atmosphere, the teachers, the facilities etc. have no influence over somebody's will to study? Don't you think if you went to a school where you had cool facilities, etc. you'd be more willing to go to school? And kind of off the topic don't you think that the actual students have an effect as well? Like at some public schools it's harder to control bitchiness and some teachers probably don't even care that much but at private schools it's more disciplaned. I'm not saying which one is better i'm just pointing out that where you send a kid is definetly going to have an effect on them.

 

[tempco]

there is always room for improvement. saying that an average kid cannot possibly become above average is plain stupid. make do with what you have, regardless of whether it's private or public school facilities/teachers/resources/etc.

What I meant was that for average students discipline is useful, but average students won't magically become above-average.

when did "magically" ever enter the picture?

refer to:

Do you really think that the learning atmosphere, the teachers, the facilities etc. have no influence over somebody's will to study?

i've known many people who went to public schools, and some of them say their classroom conditions were terrible, while others say they were fine. it depends on the school, but i think it's safe to assume that private schools have a better chance of having a more inviting, attentive learning atmosphere.

 

[angelduck]

Public all the way - why pay for the same education??

 

[tempco]

Public all the way - why pay for the same education??

do you honestly think they're the same?

 

[angelduck]

well, i honestly dont think going to a private school would have made me any smarter, so yes

 

[tempco]

so, what's the problem with having 4 swimming pools? private schools don't only cater for the academic side of things (think kings).

and how many schools have 4 swimming pools? rather, how many private schools have facilities of that nature? yes, there are a few prestigeous schools with the package, but you could probably count how many of them there are using the fingers of your hands.

i went to a private school that had a small sports field and a few basketball courts. BIG WHOOP. but my school came 8th in the state hsc-wise. we had a very good learning atmosphere, teachers who cared about how we performed, comfortable rooms, adequate equipment, books for each student, extra material (hsc papers, extra textbooks), fully functional labs with a large range of equipment, etc. you can't deny the fact that if a person from a public school who did not have all this went to my school, they would learn a lot more.

 

[tempco]

I guess this only applies if you only learn in class. I quickly realised that class wasn't for me, and started to learn on my own by building and devouring a healthy library of philosophy and history texts.

i know someone who's similar to you in that respect... people absorb knowledge in different ways. i'm obviously an in-the-class-listen-to-teacher type, although i'd love to have the passion for reading that you obviously have.

Plus your argument didn't differentiate between public schools that are well resourced and those that aren't.

true, but i still stand by the point that private schools generally have better learning conditions compared to public schools. the fact that they're private results in parents from more well-to-do families enrolling their kids in these presumably better schools. compared to public schools, where access to the school depends on the area you live in (i think), except under certain circumstances.

Wouldn't going from a public school in the bottom 10 to a selective school also make the same difference?

i was more or less addressing your statements in a previous post:

What I meant was that for average students discipline is useful, but average students won't magically become above-average.

Above average students will succeed anywhere.

So if your kid is average, don't waste your money thinking you can make them above average.

you seem to be saying that regardless of where a student is placed, in terms of learning environments, they will perform to their inherent potential? IMO, a student's performance largely depends on the environment... even a student's will to study is influenced. if the rest of your class (or a large majority of them) were doing well, everyone would feel some pressure to perform too... it's human nature to want to be accepted within a certain group.

Private schools aren't inherently better - a similarly funded private and public school, barring incompetence, will be highly similar.

i agree with you there.

 

[waterfowl]

Sometimes not even the facilities matter.

I did better at my high school that had poor facilities, than at my other high school that had "top of the line" facilities. (Both public)
I believe better education is experienced when there are less student numbers, teachers who love their job and students who get along well with each other.

 

[kirabolton]

What does being disciplined have to do with succeeding in life?

Oh look, cool facilities. Wow, I should turn up.

I skipped whenever I felt like it and I still managed to do quite well.

What I meant was that for average students discipline is useful, but average students won't magically become above-average.

Above average students will succeed anywhere.

So if your kid is average, don't waste your money thinking you can make them above average.

That's true for most cases, but couldn't sending your kid to a good school prevent an average student becoming a below average student? I go to a selective school and i know lots (well a few) people who were really pretty smart but ended up dropping out, not just because they were idiots who went on drugs but because ...oh i don't know. What i'm trying to say there are faults in what you say as well. And also average students could def. benefit from a good learning environment, you don't have to be of above average intelligence to do well if you're put in the right situation.

 

[elisabeth]

A better resourced learning environment is good, sure, but is it really worth $20,000 a year?

I dunno... I'm referring to the difference between well-off, 4-swimming-pool private schools and a decent public school (NOT a poorly stocked, rough area public school and a decent public school) but at which point do you tell your kids to suck it up and deal? At the end of the day, you're doing the same HSC and if you have the motivation to do well, you will succeed, even if you're not spoonfed as much by teachers.

I mean, I really can't justify spending such exuberant amounts of money on something you can get for almost free, when there are so many more worthwhile causes and things to spend huge sums of money on.

 

[tempco]

hmm, come to think of it, my view of "average" stems on how good or how bad you do in school/uni... lol that's pretty sad. i'm going to go and rethink things through...

@wikiwiki - examples of who you think are successful, if you don't mind.

 

[jennylim]

For God's sake education is NOT meant to be an assembly line. They aren't getting an education if they are just being forced to sit in chairs 5 days a week and listen to someone speak. At the end of the day, what have you learned except how to answer HSC questions?

That isn't learning, it is a $20 000 a year babysitting service. This is the problem with all education in this country, public or private, especially universities. What the hell ever happened to research? creative thinking?

It is disgraceful - no wonder we have a skills shortage - we are teaching people how to act in one particular situation and when they are taken out of that context most fail miserably.

The ones who succeed are in my opinion above average - they succeed despite the best efforts of our "education" factories.

answering HSC questions is the entire point of school. at least that's how i see it. if we don't manage to get into our course, what's the point of saying, "well good on me, i know how to research and teach myself?" you've still wasted a year in which you need to transfer, or whatever.

but i think, wikiwiki, that a lot of what you say re: disgraceful education can be applied to plenty of asian-dominated selective schools. see james ruse and memorising english essays, for example. and private schools certainly do allow for freedom of opinion and a lot of our assignments are research (for modern history, we all have to go to fischer library and get resources if we intend on getting decent marks).

that's not ALL private schools do, they do in fact offer a huge range of facilities for those who specialise in co-curricular activities - like music, debating, sport, etc. and what's with the sitting in assembly comment?

 

[jennylim]

that said, i just read your 2nd post and if you are paying out the board of studies itself and the whole idea, yes, i agree there. but even if it IS screwed up, it is the only thing most of us have (not all schools offer the IB which does have a better curriculum), we do need to be taught how to succeed in it. and private schools do it pretty well.

 

[kirabolton]

Wikiwiki, i agree with you with the whole creative thinking thing. But that doesn't help us get into Uni does it? I think that people need a whole range of skills, because really in so many things you need people skills, organisational etc. but it's not what we really focus on. So it's just stupid.