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Socialism,Facism,Communism,Nazism & Capitalism (2 Viewers)

Foxodi

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Communism is based on a utopia, which imo is impossible to achieve.
I think the best form of government really depends on the situation, but I'd prob go with a Technocracy/Meritocracy, with socialist values and elements of free-trade in the economy.

Edit: Omg they actually discussed intelligent things in 2005?
 

Omium

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Foxodi said:
Communism is based on a utopia, which imo is impossible to achieve.
I think the best form of government really depends on the situation, but I'd prob go with a Technocracy/Meritocracy, with socialist values and elements of free-trade in the economy.

Edit: Omg they actually discussed intelligent things in 2005?
Dictatorships are the way to go nowadays.
 

jules.09

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When you think about it, everything we devise of is inherently rooted in our vain pursuit of personal prosperity. (personal and/or collective level)

Rich countries (general mentality) would like to think that they are oh so philanthropic. If the national interest is their own domestic economy, that's already pretty clear isn't it. The point is that, there will always be a great divide between rich and poor, unless our lifestyles became ascetic and our minds are conditioned to be exceedingly altruistic.

Communism doesn't work. I don't like the idea of a revolt either. Nazism was silly. Capitalism is everywhere. Facism isn't nice. Socialism is an element nearly all societies essentially adopt. Here in the 21st century, we have a multitude of politically correct euphemisms for, "I'm going to screw you over."

It doesn't really make a difference. For what it's worth, I'd like to think I'm generally left wing. :p
 

jules.09

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Captain Gh3y said:
"You killed 11 million people? Well that was a bit silly wasn't it?"
Yes, exactly that, said with dripping sarcasm.

Sure, there was Hitler who discriminated against Jews, but there was also Mao how wanted to kill everyone regardless. I think for the record, he managed to kill the most people...

But as Stalin said, "One death is a tragedy. A million deaths is a statistic."
 

bshoc

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jules.09 said:
It doesn't really make a difference. For what it's worth, I'd like to think I'm generally left wing. :p
The fundamental difference between the left-wing and right-wing is that of social hierarchical prioritization, simply put to what extent the system in question prioritizes the elements of the individual versus the elements of the collective, whether it is conceived as the "workers of the world" or "the Volk" is really a cosmetic attribute, as outcomes are fairly similar in the institutional sense. The first four systems listed in this thread "Socialism,Fascism,Communism,Nazism" are all very much "left wing."
 

Gerald10

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Jules is right - Gov'ts are pursuing material prosperity. To me in modern politics there is only one way to run a system (or it seems that way) with a combination of both socialism and capitalism. Through economic growth people achieve higher material wealth and this flows onto social benfits - theoretically.

Chris Emerson's speech about Labor being 'market democrats' is proof of this idea. Conventional right wing philosophy like that the rich should be richer to create incentive to be more productive and the poor should be poorer to be more productive has begun to take over both sides of Gov't. It began in the 80's with Reagan and Thatcher and even the labor Gov't here began doing things that are traditionally right wing in freeing up the economy generally which has allowed for all this economic growth. Anyway Emerson argued that rather than aiming for equal wealth distribution they would aim for equal opportunity to gain wealth in the first place which is hard to do.

Now, capitalism is a system to remove absolute poverty but it will never remove relative poverty, which is fine. In fact IMO absolute poverty in the third world will be gone by the turn of the century or even earlier through the capitalist system. incidentally this concept of incentive is why communism failed - no incentive meant there was absolute poverty.

But for wealthy countries I have a problem with the system's use. As stated before in a capitalist system if the poor ar poorer it creates incentive for them to work harder and be more productive - this means that they get a smaller section of a bigger pie but materially they are better of. But essentially the system forces people to work and be more productive - this is a contemporary servivitude of the state IMO - you must work for the economy's best interest. Now of course this results in greater material wealth for everyone which is a good thing. But its a system which relies on the assumption that material wealth is the ultimate goal - which is plainly wrong. Noone would contemplate the meaning of life and realistically say that it is found only in the pursuit of materialistic goals.

It all comes down to what we value in life when analyzing the success of the capitalist system. Economic growth has become the ultimate goal when really all it should be is a means to a more important goal whether that be the pursuit of happiness, knowledge, freedom or whatever meaning you find in your life. Even if you take the pursuit of happiness as the ultimate goal - happiness from comes from being relatively rich eg in australia if I have a car and a house but all my neighbours have a better car and a bigger house I won't be happy about my wealth but in ethiopa if a bloke has an apple and looks around at everyone else without anything hes going to be pretty bloody pleased with himself.

My concern is that society is loosing sight of the other more important things in life and only focussing on material prosperity which our gov'ts are now perpetuating.

Gov't should be about providing the human race with as much freedom to decide their own course and their own meaning in life not deciding it for them and forcing them into servitude of the pursuit of material prosperity.
 
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Foxodi

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Gerald10 said:
Capitalism - But its a system which relies on the assumption that material wealth is the ultimate goal - which is plainly wrong. Noone would contemplate the meaning of life and realistically say that it is found only in the pursuit of materialistic goals.
This.
 

Ademir

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It all depends how you define left and right. It isn't just one thing that differentiates them. There's a whole host of things that can be called "left" or "right".

I think the main difference between the left and the right however, has more to do with how they try to achieve their ends than with what they actually argue for. The left tends to favour progressive change, while the right tends to be more conservative or favour extremely slow change. As you get further left you get more and more progressive until revolution is espoused. This view of the spectrum has its origins in the French Revolution; the divide originated there, when the conservative, monarch supporters sat to the right and those who favoured change sat to the left.

As different issues have popped up over time, the case has almost always been that those who took the progressive stance have been labelled left.

Consider homosexuality: those who want to institute same-sex marriage are usually leftists while those who want marriage to remain traditional are conservative rightists.

You can also notice that different views change their position over time. Once upon a time, racism was a centrist value. Most people supported it as a "normal" value. Then, some people argued that it was wrong. This would have been a left position at the time. Over time, that position became more acceptable. Now, anti-racism is considered centrist ("normal") while those who continue to support it are considered particularly conservative, maybe even extremely so. Once upon a time, laissez-faire capitalism was extremely left wing, opposed by the aristocracy. Now, its considered to the right, and I think absolute monarchy/aristocracy has fallen off the right edge of the spectrum completely.

Thus, even though many things characterise the left-right divide, I think the committment to change/method of change covers the most paradigms and is the best explanation. However, even this has its problems and is not a perfect analysis.

That's why fascism is so difficult to define. It is quite revolutionary, seeking rapid and violent change to the existing order, but in order for (mostly) conservative values to be reinforced, or in some cases, reinstituted. It's difficult to place it on the spectrum.

It seeks an overthrow to the existing order, like communism, but wants this existing order to be characterised by traditionally conservative values, such as nationalism, sexism, anti-homosexual sentiments and statism. It will support capitalism, but only if the state benefits from it. Think about it; capitalism is OK; but not for the "people", or for "freedom", or for "individualism", but for the country. At the same time, these views are to be realised through radical change, not reform or conservatism.

So it can be said that fascism is a mix of left and right; it advocates traditionally conservative/reactionary policies but through revolutionary means. The reason it has been defined as far right is probably because of the character of the views themselves, ignoring the way they might be realised. The fact that fascists/nazis made most of their political alliances with other, more traditional right parties, and virulently opposed communism and the left, probably made this analysis easier to justify.

Sorry for the long post.
 

ari89

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zimmerman8k said:
I prefer Socialism, but I'm also very Nationalistic. If only there was some way to combine the two.
hahahahaha
 

ari89

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It's all good...I'm still dreading exams:(

I actually read it and was glad he apologised for writing that 'analysis'.
 

bigboyjames

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USA shouldn't even be considered a "free market" capitalist economy. but simply an offshoot of that, to the extreme, "cooperatism".

politician like McCain, bush,Cheney are not running for, or running a CAPITALIST ECONOMY, but a pro-cooperate economy. In corporatism, "insider" corporations are given political benefit from corrupt/greedy politicians. ie, bush, Cheney, McCain etc etc. In true free market capitalism, there is no intermingling between the governing apparatus and the economic sphere. In true capitalism, the government only exists to enforce individual rights and freely entered contracts.

when examining deeply the US economy u can see how, the long term effects of capitalism, just leads to the end result of cooperatism. you can already see this happening in Australia to a smaller degree, where private developers give "donations" to political parties for developments to be passed off or politicians having board positions on firms post political careers. yes, this may be on a very small degree, , but, it cannot be denied that this simply will lead to, in the absolute long run to the conversion of capitalism to cooperatism.
 
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zstar

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I'm opposed to all forms of Socialism.

That includes Nazism and Communism in any shape or form.

I don't agree with this idea of sacrificing the individual for the collective. Markets should be free and trade should be free.

That is how you create wealth, Not this idea of the state being the big brother because that means you get screwed over in the long term because you give the government more power.
 

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