The Abortion Debate (continued) (2 Viewers)

[$hiftyIceQueen]

lol...i say 2 of each.....then no1s lonley

 

[JaredR]

Sorry I was 'done' on a technicality - I meant to say that the prevalent Religion in Australia is Christianity.

Why shouldn't abortions be free and legal, JaredR?

Because of it's effect, it should not be easily and readily accessible (As I said in the original post) Other alternatives/options should more revolve around prevention of the situation in which an abortion is nescessary: education, contraception, adoption.

In the case of adoption, it should not be a hard thing to do, if you're willing to abort your baby, then why not give it away?

----

Okay, so then the cases of rape and incest come up. What should be done in those circumstances?

The primary is counselling, particularly for rape. As for incest, if it will be shown that the baby will suffer it's life, I'm not sure. It's really a personal choice and I don't think in such a case I can add comment.

Nevertheless, why should an unborn child face death sentence for a mistake he/she had no control over or say in?

----

 

[The Brucemaster]

lol very funny...

i think that if a girl got pregnant then she should hav the baby...[i dont think abortion is the right solution]

1-there are many females who exprience post abortion syndrome...

There are also many females who experience post-natal depression and seeing as births are far more numerous thatn abortions i would argue that this is a far greater consideration than post-abortion depression.

2-it isnt the childs fault that the parent doesnt know what a pill, condom or not having sex means...

It's also not the mother's fault that she's a human being that makes mistakes. Not to mention that condoms can break, pills can fail or the pregnancy can be a result of rape.

also the only reason good enough for a female to want to have an abortion is that it will harm her ...

In what way though? Having a baby that the parent is not prepared for could cause significant emotional/psychological harm to the mother and, for that matter, the father.
Also, what about the harm to the child? If the parents are not ready to raise a child yet they have the baby anyway surely that's going to cause a far greater amount of harm than if the mother had an abortion.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

1-there are many females who exprience post abortion syndrome...

Whatever that is... but i'll make a guess. Anyway, not comparitively, there's actually very few. Of those very few that feel regret about having an abortion, many felt pressured into it by their family/partner.

 

[bshoc]

There are also many females who experience post-natal depression and seeing as births are far more numerous thatn abortions i would argue that this is a far greater consideration than post-abortion depression.

Put up baby for adoption - problem solved, everybody wins.

Or do dead babies give you a big hard-on?

It's also not the mother's fault that she's a human being that makes mistakes.

Does your mommy still wipe you bottom for you? What kind of message do you send to people and society when somebody can do something as serious as fall pregnant, and then there's an apparent "quick fix" - the same message you send like those failed heroin injecting rooms. Last time I checked our society is still built on personal responsibility - for example its our working people not centrelink bludgers who carry our economy on, and whilst one should be able to redeem ones self for mistakes made, I was unaware murder or killing something - whether you consider it human or pre-human, is one of them.

Not to mention that condoms can break, pills can fail or the pregnancy can be a result of rape.

Not if they're used correctly, and if they're both used there is virtually no chance of pregnancy.

In what way though? Having a baby that the parent is not prepared for could cause significant emotional/psychological harm to the mother and, for that matter, the father.

And you point is? If they didnt want this baby maybe they should have thought of that when they were fcking? Do people regret being in a car crash after it happens?

Also, what about the harm to the child? If the parents are not ready to raise a child yet they have the baby anyway surely that's going to cause a far greater amount of harm than if the mother had an abortion.

Being adopted is better than being dead.

But then again - who am I to argue with the brilliant work of our well trained doctor population who make $$$ from every abortion? Just look at their standards of medical ethics and judgement - http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51549

Dont kid youself, its an industry.

 

[bshoc]

From a scientific standpoint, a human embryo is a living human organism. It is a system of organized cells, resisting entropy and possessing its own metabolism. It is offspring from human beings. It is actively engaged in the process of human development.

To support my statements, I will take a detailed look at the process of human development a long with you. Let us look together at this process with an open mind.

To reference the material see each stage in this chart.
http://www.visembryo.com/baby/hp.html

Within 11 hours following fertilization, the oocyte has extruded a polar body with its excess chromosomes. The fusion of the oocyte and sperm nuclei marks the creation of the zygote and the end of fertilization.

Above we have the fusion from the 2 natural male and female counterparts identified, into a single entity, the zygote. A new living human organism, created through human reproduction
The zygote immediately begins the process of human development, a stage called "cleavage"

The zygote now begins to cleave, with each division occurring into two cells called blastomeres. The zygote's first cell division begins a series of divisions, with each division occurring approximately every twenty hours. Each blastomere within the zona pellucida becomes smaller and smaller with each subsequent division.

The singular human organism, begins to grow.

When cell division ungenerated about sixteen cells, the zygote becomes a morula (mulberry shaped). It leaves the fallopian tube and enters the uterine cavity three to four days after fertilization.

Amazing. So soon after the formation of a human, it relocates.

About four days after fertilization, the morula enters the uterine cavity. Cell division continues, and a cavity known as a blastocele forms in the center of the morula. Cells flatten and compact on the inside of the cavity while the zona pellucida remains the same size. With the appearance of the cavity in the center, the entire structure is now called a blastocyst.

Absolutely incredible, its body is already changing all for the purpose of human development.

he presence of the blastocyst indicates that two cell types are forming: the embryoblast (inner cell mass on the inside of the blastocele), and the trophoblast (the cells on the outside of the blastocele).

As you can see the growth is continuous steady process, immediately beginning at conception and continuing throughout.

The blastocyst "hatches" from the zona pellucida around the sixth day after fertilization, as the blastocyst enters the uterus. The trophoblast cells secretes an enzyme which erodes the epithelial uterine lining and creates an implantation site for the blastocyst.

Remarkably, the human life is engaged in a complex process to secure itself in its natural habitat all before it is granted the right to even be called an embryo.

I could go on, but Ive demonstrated how alive and active human life is at its first stages of development. This process is steadily progressive. This process that does not belong to the mother, or the father. It belongs to a new being, it is their life, and their body. Once a new human is conceived, it should not be up to the mother to kill it for convenience.

A fetus is not potentially human in the way sperm or an egg are. It is human. From zygote to new born baby, the organism maintains its identity and possibly splits into separate identities.

 

[Generator]

MP who felled abortion ad bill funded by lobby

 

[KFunk]

Remarkably, the human life is engaged in a complex process to secure itself in its natural habitat all before it is granted the right to even be called an embryo.

I could go on, but Ive demonstrated how alive and active human life is at its first stages of development. This process is steadily progressive. This process that does not belong to the mother, or the father. It belongs to a new being, it is their life, and their body. Once a new human is conceived, it should not be up to the mother to kill it for convenience.

A fetus is not potentially human in the way sperm or an egg are. It is human. From zygote to new born baby, the organism maintains its identity and possibly splits into separate identities.

Some of these points/questions have probably been brought up in this thread already but I'm still going to pose them in response to the above:

- The growth and development of spermatozoa and oocytes can be seen as 'active' and 'progressive' in a similar way. One could suggest that the collective process of their development and coming together in fertilisation belongs to future beings other than the father and the mother. By using contraception we effectively prevent the existence of a human being the way we do when we abort a pregnancy. Do you admit contraception but not abortion? If so, why?

- Suppose that we were able to detect whether twinning was going to occur (the monozygotic form where both twins arise from the same fertilized egg) and we had the technology to prevent the process. Would it be wrong to prevent it, therby preventing the existence of one of two potential beings?

- Is it fair to claim that 'the process in no way belongs to the mother or father'? During those early stages of development and for some time after the conceptus is entirely dependent on the mother for nutrients - potentially to the mother's detriment (in particular in developing countries when a mother lacks adequate nutrition). Could the mother perhaps be doing the conceptus a favour rather than fulfilling some kind of moral obligation?

- ... also, factor overpopulation into the equation. Does the situation change if we are doing damage to humanity by having more and more children? If the sustainable birth rate is a very low one can we justify telling someone not to abort when they don't want a child or lack the means to look after it?

 

[shelly cat]

What an interesting forum i would like to note that the majority of posts on here are from males.
I believe that abortion should not be an illegal act as people are still going to want abortions no matter what and they will seek thoes dangerous backyard abortions that will endanger more lives. Just think do you really believe that a woman who has been raped would like to have the thought that the growth inside her is a result of some unscrupulous person who has no notion of societies morality and ethics. If abortions are illegal this girl has to be subject to the torture of a coat hanger bent and then shoved up into her most private parts. Is this right??
Technological advances such as the pill is not 100% effective and a woman has the right to choose what she wants to do with her life and if she does not what it to be disrupted by a mistake then she has the right to choose so. Isnt that what feminism was supposed to achieve?
Or do you think that women are inferior?

 

[The Brucemaster]

Put up baby for adoption - problem solved, everybody wins.

Or do dead babies give you a big hard-on?

You know, that comment is so ridiculously inappropriate that its making me sick.

What kind of message do you send to people and society when somebody can do something as serious as fall pregnant, and then there's an apparent "quick fix" - the same message you send like those failed heroin injecting rooms.

A quick fix? Is that how you see abortion? How is abortion a quick fix? You don't just pop down the road to your local doctor and grab an abortion before you head out to lunch, its a procedure that has a lasting emotional impact and can take a long time to recover from.

As to the heroin injecting rooms you might do well to realise that they have a support rate of approximately 75% in the local community.

Last time I checked our society is still built on personal responsibility - for example its our working people not centrelink bludgers who carry our economy on, and whilst one should be able to redeem ones self for mistakes made, I was unaware murder or killing something - whether you consider it human or pre-human, is one of them.

But personal responsibility to whom or what? Surely the parents also have a responsibility to The State to ensure that their child grows up to be a productive member of society? Also, what if the parents cannot provide the child with adequate support for their develpoment? Do they not have a responsibility to ensure that these conditions are provided?

If they can't ensure that they are able to live up to these responsibilities then they should have the option of abortion available to them.

 

[vern]

If I got a girl pregnant I would have myself killed along with any foetuses for being a stupid idiot and ruining my life.

I'm not trying too say its a smart thing too do, hell no it is quiet stupid! But, you fix it don't go killing everything

 

[Serius]

What an interesting forum i would like to note that the majority of posts on here are from males.
I believe that abortion should not be an illegal act as people are still going to want abortions no matter what and they will seek thoes dangerous backyard abortions that will endanger more lives. Just think do you really believe that a woman who has been raped would like to have the thought that the growth inside her is a result of some unscrupulous person who has no notion of societies morality and ethics. If abortions are illegal this girl has to be subject to the torture of a coat hanger bent and then shoved up into her most private parts. Is this right??
Technological advances such as the pill is not 100% effective and a woman has the right to choose what she wants to do with her life and if she does not what it to be disrupted by a mistake then she has the right to choose so. Isnt that what feminism was supposed to achieve?
Or do you think that women are inferior?

lets legalise heroin while we are at it. Afterall, there will always be a small minority who use it wether its legal or not.

 

[Generator]

What's to be gained by using that example, Serius?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

What an interesting forum i would like to note that the majority of posts on here are from males.

I hope you also note that there are just as many males supportive of abortion as there are against.

 

[Aime Fantasy]

What an interesting forum i would like to note that the majority of posts on here are from males.

....

Technological advances such as the pill is not 100% effective and a woman has the right to choose what she wants to do with her life and if she does not what it to be disrupted by a mistake then she has the right to choose so. Isnt that what feminism was supposed to achieve?
Or do you think that women are inferior?

Don't be niave. Noone is portraying women as inferior if they're pro-life. I'm betting the majority of males on here that are pro-life if they had a sex-change would still have the same attitude (not saying they should, but anyway). Other people do not see the situation like you do. You are only focusing on the mother. More constructive pro-choice and pro-lifers that don't take their beliefs for granted include the baby AND the mother.

I read the 1st few pages and noted how many times pro-choice protrayed pro-lifers as hardcore christians. You can be pro-life and not be chrisian =) (which is what I am).

I'd like the pro-choicers to reflect on if their mothers would have had an abortion because of tough times or whatever (rape, etc.), what would be missing? You! Simple concept, but to understand the implications of what a mother decides when she agrees with the abortion are very hard to get your head around. How many lives have disapeared? It doesn't matter whether or not it is called murder. If you relate it to how you feel when you reflect on what would have happened if your mum had had an abortion, I'm sure you'll understand. It's something I cannot explain in words.

Just on a side not, on page 2-3 a pro-choicer stated that pro-lifers should logically be vegetarian. I am vegetarian for more or less the same reason.

In this situation, it's going to be very hard to come up with any reason for this "debate" (note the inverted commas). Are people actually being changed by the other's opinions? I've learnt a lot from pro-choicers (I've pretty much reflected on all the reasons for pro-life myself...), and in turn become a lot more cynical and pessimistic of the world. Not saying it's a bad thing. Think of it as a sort of reality check.

 

[Serius]

What's to be gained by using that example, Serius?

her point was that people have abortions wether it is legal or not. I was pointing out that the same is true for heroin and yet it is illegal. One of the main reasons it is illegal is because making something illegal does infact cutdown on the numbers of users.

To translate, if abortions were made illegal, only the diehard people willing to fork out alot of money, and pay the price with pain or loss of uterus would then get a blackmarket abortion, hence invalidating her point

 

[shelly cat]

I am pro abortion because i believe that the fetus is not an entity until it is removed from the womb. This is really the basis behind the argument we all belive that it is morally and ethically wrong to kill a person and the reason that the abortion debate is raging in society is because no one can decide when the fetus becomes and entity. I thought this forum might begin to make more sense if someone pointed this out.

 

[Generator]

I'd like the pro-choicers to reflect on if their mothers would have had an abortion because of tough times or whatever (rape, etc.), what would be missing? You! Simple concept, but to understand the implications of what a mother decides when she agrees with the abortion are very hard to get your head around. How many lives have disapeared? It doesn't matter whether or not it is called murder. If you relate it to how you feel when you reflect on what would have happened if your mum had had an abortion, I'm sure you'll understand. It's something I cannot explain in words.

How could a 'life' that never began be missing? How could a person (or their parents) miss what they never knew?

 

[bshoc]

Some babies have been "aborted" later than others have been "born" .. for example: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51549

The sooner abortion law is returned to its normal pre-feminist state the better, also note that womens equality has nothing to do with the rights of the unborn.

 

[bshoc]

How could a 'life' that never began be missing?

Becuase some people like to think that they decide arbitrararily when this happens in order to fulfil their ridiculous social agendas - such as yourself. Fetuses aren't dead, and theres only one other state of life other than "dead" - take a wild guess.

How could a person (or their parents) miss what they never knew?

Why dont you ask about the millions of women just like this one?

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/my-story-never-got-heard/2006/08/22/1156012515264.html