The Abortion Debate... (2 Viewers)

[Bone577]

By 12 weeks they have recognisable human parts, a beating heart and they move around.

The real question is when does it have consiousness. And how do you definie consiousness?

This goes into the realm of the philosophical, but it is realy the most important thing in regards to this whole issue.


I wouldn't say a 4 cell organism has consiousness. But when does it?

Is it right to kill an animal that definitely has a consiousness but then not be able to kill a feotus (spelling?).

 

[Not-That-Bright]

animals aren't aware of their own existance, neither are early foetus's, that's why i justify it... if u look a few posts back i retracted all my claims when i read something fairly reputable that said their nerves aren't fully connected untill 24 weeks, at which they can feel pain and i'm guessing would become semi self-aware...

 

[ur_inner_child]

Is it right to kill an animal that definitely has a consiousness but then not be able to kill a feotus (spelling?).

we kill animals all the frikin time. Regardless of its consciousness, it seems to come down on HOW we kill them: quickly or painfully slowly etc. Don't raise animals in this issue, it doesnt seem to work in an abortion argument, for me anyway. The only animals we can say that has self-consciousness would be chimps, dolphins and humans. Just cut animals altogether before it turns into the "meet your meat" thread lol.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

yea exactly.. and the only animals with self-awareness are chimps, dolphins, whales, humans and probably some other creatures...

However if that was the only basis for determining if it was ok to kill people, i assume you people would support the killing of newborns, people in coma's, the mentally disabled etc etc...

We should have compassion for all humans, reguardless or race, age, sex...etc etc

 

[Bone577]

I would say more animals are self-aware. But again, define self-aware. Is there something significant that sets us apart from animals?

we kill animals all the frikin time. Regardless of its consciousness, it seems to come down on HOW we kill them: quickly or painfully slowly etc.

Yes animals die all the time, but soo did the East Timorese in the late 90's, is that a justification? Or how about Jews in World War 2?

So would it be okay to kill a feotus if it was done quickly?


I am not on any particular side mind you, when you find out the meaning of self-consious, draw a line at when a baby is and isn't consiounce and I will say killing before then is fine, killing after is wrong.

 

[ur_inner_child]

Yes animals die all the time, but soo did the East Timorese in the late 90's, is that a justification? Or how about Jews in World War 2?

So would it be okay to kill a feotus if it was done quickly?.

Self awareness can be defined as the ability to recognise pain, or the ability to identify themselves in a mirror. These are two types of self consciousness. Those two a tests, mirror test etc.

If we're talking self-consciousness ie: pain, then we say before 24weeks I think, as not-that-bright said

If we're talking self consciousness ie: mirror test, *shrugs* only dolphins, chimps etc can do this.

I think comparing abortions to killing Jews is a rather weird comparison... but whatever suits you.

 

[Bone577]

Self awareness can be defined as the ability to recognise pain, or the ability to identify themselves in a mirror. These are two types of self consciousness. Those two a tests, mirror test etc.

If we're talking self-consciousness ie: pain, then we say before 24weeks I think, as not-that-bright said

If we're talking self consciousness ie: mirror test, *shrugs* only dolphins, chimps etc can do this.

I think comparing abortions to killing Jews is a rather weird comparison... but whatever suits you.

we kill animals all the frikin time. Regardless of its consciousness, it seems to come down on HOW we kill them: quickly or painfully slowly etc.

Actually, Jews and East Timorese. You said it was about how we kill animals all the time, and HOW we do it. Which i was pointing out is an incredibly bad argument, as genocide causes many quick deaths, so saying that killing animals for those reasons is ok it would justify genocide.


I don't see how you could say other animals don't feel pain.

 

[katie_tully]

Fact is, if abortion was cruel, painful or inhumane to the fetus, it would not be legal.

Have any of you had an abortion? Do you know what goes on?
I've been with a friend and my mother when they've had an abortion. It's not like you wake up one day and go "Oh, I don't want this child, I'm going to abort it". You actually have to prove without doubt that you are going to harm the child, or the child is going to harm you. You can't just ask for an abortion, and the questioning is quite rigorous.

It is a relgious issue. The only reason the politicians want to ban it IS because of religious issues. John Howard is a fucking bible basher, and so are most of his ministers. Religion has no place in politics in the year 2000. The want to ban late term abortions. The only time you can have a late term abortion is when;
A deformality has been detected
The fetus has died and will harm you if left in the womb
I don't think it's fair that a woman has to give birth to a child knowing it isn't healthy, and nor do I think anybody has the right to tell her whether she can or not.

 

[Ribbon]

Did either of your friends consider adoption? Not to pressure the life issue in this case, I'm just wondering.

In a way yes, but it's such a tough option it kindof gets dismissed right away. My friend who kept her baby didn't consider it because she wanted to keep the baby anyway, and my freind who had an aborition - we talked about it, but she feels the same way I do (not that I have ever been pregnant, but for obivous reasons I have considered the issues), that it is too hard to give up a baby you had carried to full term. Its also about the controversy too - if you have an abortion, no one needs to know that you got pregnant when you were this young, because regardless of how careful you were, you inadvertantly get saddled with the stereotypes of irresponsibility, being a slut ect. ect.

I am in a great relationship, living with my boyfriend who gets paid quite well for someone his age (working full time) and although we have talked about it and we definitely want kids one day (looong way off) I would have an abortion in a heartbeat if I got pregnant. I think we probably could give a child a good life the way things are, but not without ruining both of ours in the process and personally, I would prefer to have never been born if my mother was in the same situation when she got pregnant, or if she was only 16 when she had me, ect. ect. and I would definitely prefer not to have been born than to have some severe mental or physcial disability.

 

[ur_inner_child]

Actually, Jews and East Timorese. You said it was about how we kill animals all the time, and HOW we do it. Which i was pointing out is an incredibly bad argument, as genocide causes many quick deaths, so saying that killing animals for those reasons is ok it would justify genocide.


I don't see how you could say other animals don't feel pain.

Already misunderstandings have taken place once bringing in animals, which was purely, and utterly my argument.

I never said that other animals don't feel pain. Please read my posts.

Maybe I should clarify why as well. Because the argument about the rights of animals are also ambigious as abortion (please refer to thread called "meet your meat", so it will only lead to more debate, which will deter from the original topic.

 

[Bone577]

Already misunderstandings have taken place once bringing in animals, which was purely, and utterly my argument.

I never said that other animals don't feel pain. Please read my posts.

Maybe I should clarify why as well. Because the argument about the rights of animals are also ambigious as abortion (please refer to thread called "meet your meat", so it will only lead to more debate, which will deter from the original topic.

I don't see the irelevance. It is a matter of ethics, and i do believe this is an ethical debate.

Is it right to kill an animal, yet wrong to kill a feotus?
Is there a reason why a cow may be killed, while a feotus shouldn't?

Of course you could say you value the life of a human over any animal, that is when it would become irrelevant.

 

[ur_inner_child]

I don't see the irelevance. It is a matter of ethics, and i do believe this is an ethical debate.

Is it right to kill an animal, yet wrong to kill a feotus?
Is there a reason why a cow may be killed, while a feotus shouldn't?

Of course you could say you value the life of a human over any animal, that is when it would become irrelevant.

I'm pretty sure most of this argument consists of whether a foetus is classified as a complete human or not. You comparing it with an animal rules out this debate by assuming everyone agrees that a foetus is a full organism like an animal, by which you suggest in your comparison.

I agree with you, because I know what you mean, although there are too many differences, as pointed out previously by others.

foetus is incapable to feel pain 12-24 weeks, I forgot what not-that-bright said,
in contrast an animal is capable of doing so

the ethical debate which some go by is the connection a foetus has to a woman that involves consequences both to the child and the mother in a completely different way to the ethical debate about animal rights. The ethical debate about animal rights is mainly concerned with the WAY in which they are killed, which is why the RSPCA aren't exactly hating everyone that eats meat. Abortion does not. The ethical debate is the morals/rights of a foetus and a mother.

I'm sorry, but for me, you are dragging in two different examples.

 

[Bone577]

I'm pretty sure most of this argument consists of whether a foetus is classified as a complete human or not. You comparing it with an animal rules out this debate by assuming everyone agrees that a foetus is a full organism like an animal, by which you suggest in your comparison.

I agree with you, because I know what you mean, although there are too many differences, as pointed out previously by others.

foetus is incapable to feel pain 12-24 weeks, I forgot what not-that-bright said,
in contrast an animal is capable of doing so

the ethical debate which some go by is the connection a foetus has to a woman that involves consequences both to the child and the mother in a completely different way to the ethical debate about animal rights. The ethical debate about animal rights is mainly concerned with the WAY in which they are killed, which is why the RSPCA aren't exactly hating everyone that eats meat. Abortion does not. The ethical debate is the morals/rights of a foetus and a mother.

I'm sorry, but for me, you are dragging in two different examples.

To me there is only 1 ethical debate. Is it wrong to kill a feotus. This is not about animal rights. It is about a comparison. If you are against abortion but for eating animals, I see a strange contradiction since it is arguable that the full grown animal has more consiousness than a feotus.

That is unless you believe that a human life by nature is more important than an animals. Once we start discussing the value of an animals life vs human life is when it is about animal rights, and i don't plan on going there since i'm not really concerned with animal rights.

 

[Jezzabelle]

ok ok. enough pussy footing around on my behalf. i'm just gonna make my stand and leave it at that.

I would never have an abortion because I am a Christian and God's word has instructed me and influenced my values and morals.
The Bible says that life begins at conception, not merely at birth;

Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me." (dont debate the sin bit, the issue is that it states that from conception this is a person we are talking about in the womb)

and that God wants the baby to be born and has a plan for it;

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Psalm 139:13-16
" For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be. "

therefore inlight of the fact that life begins at conception, and Genesis 9:5 "Murder is forbidden." I think abortion is absolutely wrong. I do not support abortion.
Proverbs 24:11-12
"Rescue those who are unjustly sentenced to death; don't stand back and let them die. 12Don't try to avoid responsibility by saying you didn't know about it. For God knows all hearts, and he sees you. He keeps watch over your soul, and he knows you knew! And he will judge all people according to what they have done."

but the bible also states that people have the final say over their own body. but although you can do anything, not everything is good for you
1 Corinthians 6: 12-13
You may say, "I am allowed to do anything." But I reply, "Not everything is good for you." And even though "I am allowed to do anything," I must not become a slave to anything.

SO WHAT HAVE I JUST DONE ?

I have provided clear evidence why Christians dont think abortion is right. And have supplied why I have decided i would never have an abortion.

But more to the point, I have this opinion because I believe in God's creation.

Those who believe in evolution, survival of the fittest, natural selection, random chance.... should have no problems with killing a life that is developing in the womb, ESPECIALLY if this life is deformed in any way, survival of the fittest!

So I see that this issue is not something that should be political because it is dependant on personal belief systems.

I think abortion is wrong and is murder, but I also think its wrong to force my belief on others. As what i opininate as murder, another person who is athiest/evolution would see it as not murder. So how can you make a law regarding this?!

Furthermore, making it illegal would not stop it, it would just prevent proper medical surgery, appropriate counselling etc. And i think that is a bigger crime. proper health care should be non-discriminatory and not restricted by politics or religion.
(bloody hell UNSW accept me into undergrad med, i'd be a good doctor!!!)

PS: to SMH, and all other newspapers, how about you run an article that reflects our beliefs and opinions on the real world, like the intelligent, mature young people we are instead of running crap on the HSC. We actually have a lot more opinions then just whether or not we killed an exam. You make us sound so naive, selfish and unimportant to real current affairs issues

soz i wrote that out in the other one too

 

[inasero]

If you are against abortion but for eating animals, I see a strange contradiction since it is arguable that the full grown animal has more consiousness than a feotus.

let me answer your question with another question. Say you were on a sinking raft with you, a fellow human being who is a stranger and a monkey, who(which) would you save? To compare a human life with an animals is unfair. Humans were created to rule over animals. Of course this doesn't mean that we can abuse them at will, just thatthe human life is worth more. Don't you agree?

 

[Danoz The Great]

I'm far from religious, and since it's been said that abortion and religious experiences go hand in hand, I thought my opinion would be great here...

I think that abortion is a thing that shoudn't occur, as it's pretty inhumane.
However, it may have to occur in some predicaments (e.g- a young girl raped and as a result becomes pregnant, the pregnancy is harming the mother, etc.) and I respect that.

However, reasons such as one night stand, etc. are totally unacceptable for an abortion. You suffered the consequences for your own actions.

It can also harm the 'mother', and, can cause infertility as a result. (So your teenage 'resolution' to your pregnancy, could be one you really regret when you're older and wanting children).
It can also cause psychological problems to the mother, as the sense of regret increases.

There's plenty other reasons too refuting abortion. I think it's cruel

 

[superbird]

I think its more unnecessary. The only reason its as popular than ever before is because more teenagers are having unprotected sex. The situation and consequence (falling pregnant) can easily be avoided.

 

[Bone577]

let me answer your question with another question. Say you were on a sinking raft with you, a fellow human being who is a stranger and a monkey, who(which) would you save? To compare a human life with an animals is unfair. Humans were created to rule over animals. Of course this doesn't mean that we can abuse them at will, just thatthe human life is worth more. Don't you agree?

I knew someone would do this,
that is why at the end of every post on the matter i wrote something along the lines of "That is unless you believe that a human life by nature is more important than an animals. "

Yet it still happened.

 

[superbird]

I knew someone would do this,
that is why at the end of every post on the matter i wrote something along the lines of "That is unless you believe that a human life by nature is more important than an animals. "

Yet it still happened.

Why single out people who see human life as more important than an animal's? I think nearly everybody around the world sees human life as more important than an animals in my opinion. Its just human nature.

 

[Bone577]

Why single out people who see human life as more important than an animal's? I think nearly everybody around the world sees human life as more important than an animals in my opinion. Its just human nature.

Point is, he starts to explain to me that if you value the life of a human more, my comparison doesn't count. Which is rather pointless since at the end of every one of my threads i said exactly the same thing.

Note:

That is unless you believe that a human life by nature is more important than an animals.

The he sais:

Say you were on a sinking raft with you, a fellow human being who is a stranger and a monkey, who(which) would you save? To compare a human life with an animals is unfair. Humans were created to rule over animals. Of course this doesn't mean that we can abuse them at will, just thatthe human life is worth more. Don't you agree?

Basicaly telling me that if you value a human life more my point is meaningless. I just knew someone was gonna give me a lecture about it.