The Crises of Capitalism (2 Viewers)

Valdek

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Have the fucking balls to say you hate people having more money than you. This is such fucking navel-gazing nonsense.

JOIN AN ANTICAPITALIST MOVEMENT TODAY TO FIGHT AGAINST CORPORATISM.
Can you calm down, I wanted a civil debate not abuse. How old are you?
To answer your question, I find statistics like 2% of owning over half the world's wealth disgusting and not simply 'people owning more money than me'

You can just dismiss David Harvey like that obviously, you're just being ignorant, he probably has several times the amount of research experience and it's like he would make an argument so easily knocked down by a laymen such as you. Look at what he is saying in a little more depth and come back to me.

"A working person toiling away on an automobile assembly line or in a restaurant kitchen must have found it difficult to understand how the bankers and brokers who have brought the economy to its knees made so much money simply by selling pieces of paper. When workers make cars, houses or meals, and when farmers produce food, they are producing something that people need and can use. But those who sell complex financial instruments don't produce anything at all. Something doesn't seem right about making money without producing a useful good or service. And indeed, no society can survive if the only economic activity - or even the dominant activity - is lending and borrowing money. The same can be said for buying already-made things at one price and selling them at a higher price. if the only economic activity is merchant trade, everyone will soon die because nothing is being produced. at its most fundamental level, an economic is a system of production of a least some useful outputs. When so much labor is devoted to the buying and selling of pieces of paper, with the sole aim of converting money into money, something profoundly irrational is taking place."

That, my friend is the crises of capitalism.
 

SylviaB

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That, my friend is the crises of capitalism.
I'm not really sure what you mean by "capitalism", but what rothbard and I advocate is a free market.

America is not a free market, and neither is anywhere else in the world.

Those bankers were able to make so much money because the federal reserve (not free market) printed off a fuckton of fiat currency (not free market) and loaned it to the bankers for next to nothing (not free market). Meanwhile, washington was doing everything it could to get people to buy homes and was passing all kinds of regulations that all but forced bankers into giving out bad loans (not free market), and used state-sponsored corporations, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, to get loans for people who were considered too risk by private banks (not free market).
Bankers knew what they were doing was extremely risky, but ultimately realised that because of the damage caused by their insolvency, the government would simply have to bail them out (not free market). And of course, if you know your losses are going to be socalised (not free market), you're going to behave a lot less prudently.

If you want to complain about "capitalism", fine. But it's not what we support.

[youtube]pHIlr77NF8I[/youtube]
 

SylviaB

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And fuck off with this appeal to authority.

Rothbard and I aren't just pulling this shit out of arses, we study the work of brilliant economists.

Harvey is a fucking "social theorist" who has no fucking clue of what he's talking about.
 

Rothbard

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Can you calm down, I wanted a civil debate not abuse. How old are you?
To answer your question, I find statistics like 2% of owning over half the world's wealth disgusting and not simply 'people owning more money than me'

You can just dismiss David Harvey like that obviously, you're just being ignorant, he probably has several times the amount of research experience and it's like he would make an argument so easily knocked down by a laymen such as you. Look at what he is saying in a little more depth and come back to me.

"A working person toiling away on an automobile assembly line or in a restaurant kitchen must have found it difficult to understand how the bankers and brokers who have brought the economy to its knees made so much money simply by selling pieces of paper. When workers make cars, houses or meals, and when farmers produce food, they are producing something that people need and can use. But those who sell complex financial instruments don't produce anything at all. Something doesn't seem right about making money without producing a useful good or service. And indeed, no society can survive if the only economic activity - or even the dominant activity - is lending and borrowing money. The same can be said for buying already-made things at one price and selling them at a higher price. if the only economic activity is merchant trade, everyone will soon die because nothing is being produced. at its most fundamental level, an economic is a system of production of a least some useful outputs. When so much labor is devoted to the buying and selling of pieces of paper, with the sole aim of converting money into money, something profoundly irrational is taking place."

That, my friend is the crises of capitalism.
sweet tell me more about your appeals to authority
 

Rothbard

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SOCIETY IS BROKEN

if we just *marxism*

UTOPIA
 

Rothbard

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it's obvious the solution to society's problems is more coercion
 

Graney

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Harvey's thesis seems to be that it's somehow more noble and important to be a producer, than to be a service provider. At least from the quote you provided, his argument is essentially based on aesthetics, rather than any real criticism of how and why financiers are essential.

"A working person toiling away on an automobile assembly line or in a restaurant kitchen must have found it difficult to understand how the bankers and brokers who have brought the economy to its knees made so much money simply by selling pieces of paper. When workers make cars, houses or meals, and when farmers produce food, they are producing something that people need and can use. But those who sell complex financial instruments don't produce anything at all.
It is mind blowingly simplistic, to imply that production is in any way more important than service provision. I'm studying in health care. I will never produce or manufacture anything. I see no essential difference between what I do, and what a financier does. Without financiers, no major businesses or wealth would exist, certainly my job in health care couldn't exist.

Something doesn't seem right about making money without producing a useful good or service. And indeed, no society can survive if the only economic activity - or even the dominant activity - is lending and borrowing money.
Facilitating the lending and borrowing of money isn't a useful service? How will you build a house, or establish a business, if you don't have sufficient capital to purchase it outright? Any restriction on the ability to, or incentives involved in the lending of money, will hurt the poor most of all. The middle and upper classes already possess capital which they can invest to turn into income. The poor need to be able to borrow money most of all if they are to achieve upward mobility.

no society can survive if the only economic activity - or even the dominant activity - is lending and borrowing money.
Who suggested lending money is, or should be, the only economic activity?
No society can survive if the only economic activity is health care. Obviously we should abolish health care.

The same can be said for buying already-made things at one price and selling them at a higher price.
That sounds like an incredibly useful service, in terms of opening up markets and increasing sales for the producer, and making available better quality or cheaper goods to the consumer. In either case, it obviously greatly enhances people's lives

if the only economic activity is merchant trade, everyone will soon die because nothing is being produced.
What an absurd scenario, that could never happen for self-regulating reasons. If 100% of society is involved in trading, and no one is producing anything, the value of and renumeration achievable by being a producer would increase exponentially, due to the scarcity of desireable goods. Huge incentives then exist to become a producer, rational individuals rush into the production industry, and sufficient production soon resumes.
 
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Rothbard

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bro marxism self organises as everyone is the same
 

IamVooDoo

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What is it with all the name-calling? I mean seriously guys, can't you just have a mature political debate without resorting to calling each other "asshole" or "retard"?
My opinion: It is clear that capitalism has its flaws, but it is capitalism that made America into the economic superpower from 1935 to 1970, while the Soviet union barely had enough money to flush their toilets. It wasn't until the widespread power of the financial corporations got too big that we started having problems. Somebody above me accused the poster of "hating those who are richer than you", but I think it's absolutely absurd that anybody should have hundreds of millions of dollars, especially when they didn't earn the money (These financial corporations basically "manage" your money and take out a good chunk of it for themselves). As stated in the video, wages for the middle class in UK/US have fallen in the past decade while the richest are getting even more rich (I don't have the exact numbers with me, but the top 1% in America alone gained around 186% more money in the past decade). This is because of a lack of regulation and the fact that the US government is largely bought out by these corporations to the point where the middle class pays a greater % of tax than the upper class. I think that regulation is absolutely mandatory for not having this kind of situation, but it doesn't mean that capitalism is bad. Look at Norway/Sweden/Denmark/Australia (to an extent), who have made their fundamentally capitalist economy slightly socialist and with the right regulation, maintain a very high and stable living standard. NOBODY on Earth deserves billions of dollars regardless of what you say, especially when you have people who have been working 12 hours a day every day for decades and still can barely afford the rent of their house.
Corruption, greed, and lack of regulation are the ultimate causes of the current financial crisis, and are (unfortunately) a byproduct of capitalism, but I think you can have a capitalistic society without these problems. Just my opinion ^.
 

Lolsmith

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lol lack of regulation okay did you even read what Sylvester wrote no you didn't stop talking
 

Rothbard

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Ugh wages have not fallen overall they have fallen as a percentage of GDP

fucking lying marxist scum
 

SylviaB

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and lack of regulation are the ultimate causes of the current financial crisis
Watch the video I posted above to understand why the crisis really happened.

On deregulation:


Another 'Deregulation' Myth
A cautionary tale about financial rules that failed.



As we've documented the myriad ways that Washington encouraged the housing bubble, the media and Democrats continue to search for evidence to blame it all on "deregulation."

One alleged perpetrator, the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, was released without charges after the record revealed that Joe Biden voted for it and Bill Clinton signed it. More to the point, investment banks were already free, prior to the 1999 law, to invest in the same assets that have wreaked such havoc today.

Barack Obama nonetheless attacks President Bush's policies to "strip away regulation," without mentioning a single example. In an attempt to fill out Mr. Obama's talking points, the press corps has now fingered a 2004 change in SEC net capital rules. In fact, then-SEC Chairman William Donaldson's reform was anything but deregulation. A regulatory failure, yes, and a cautionary tale for those who think new regulation will solve everything.

The 2004 change won unanimous approval from SEC commissioners and Democrat Annette Nazareth, who ran the market regulation division at the time. Rather than deregulation, it was a breathtaking regulatory leap for an agency that had traditionally focused on protecting individual investors. Under the new program, the SEC would not simply monitor broker-dealers to ensure that client accounts were safe. The commission staff would collect new data from the parent companies of brokerages and require new monthly and quarterly reports. Firms were supposed to provide detailed explanations of internal risk models.

Before approving the rule at an April 2004 meeting, several commissioners wondered if the SEC staff was up to the task. Apparently not. It's clear from a recording of that meeting that the commission expected investment banks to employ more debt. This was no unintended consequence but the inevitable result of adopting the so-called Basel II banking standards. The SEC was supposed to apply these standards created for commercial banks to investment banks, but with additional measures to ensure liquidity.

Was Basel II a libertarian plot cooked up at the Cato Institute? Not quite. It was the product of years of effort by the world's major central banks, intended to avoid crises such as the U.S. savings and loan disaster. Basel embraced the theory that a common set of global banking standards and more intensive study of the risks of particular assets would yield both more efficient use of capital and a more stable financial system.

We now know it did not create stable investment banks, but the SEC could be forgiven for thinking that if it was good enough for the world's central bankers, it was good enough for the commission. As Ms. Nazareth said of the SEC's new approach, "It's largely modeled after Federal Reserve-type supervision and I can't imagine anyone would question that kind of approach." Few did. Swiss banking regulators are only now raising mandatory capital ratios above those permitted under Basel II.

One fair question is how such regulation could have allowed Wall Street to employ so much more debt than the commercial banks. Part of the answer is that, instead of a fixed capital ratio standard, Basel II uses mathematical models crunching historical data to determine how risky an institution's assets are and therefore how much capital it needs. For this reason, when the investment banks switched to Basel II in the middle of a housing boom, AAA-rated mortgage-backed securities appeared almost as safe as cash. Oops. The models allowed Wall Street to add too much leverage. By the same token, because risk models will now look back and see several awful years of default rates, they may force banks to be overly cautious.

News reports have played up a recent report by the SEC's Inspector General criticizing the SEC's risk supervision under the 2004 rule change. The IG also criticized the specific monitoring of Bear Stearns. But on the central question of whether the rules were enforced and applied correctly, the IG's verdict is clear: "Bear Stearns was compliant with the CSE program's capital and liquidity requirements."

We should also note that the SEC's net capital rules appear to have worked as they were originally intended throughout this crisis. Created in 1975, these regulations were explicitly to protect cash and securities in investor accounts. Sure, investment banks could fail, as Drexel Burnham Lambert did in 1990, but such failures could not be allowed to wipe out brokerage customers.

In case a firm or an individual violates the obligation, there is the Securities Investor Protection Corporation (SIPC). According to the SIPC, individual customer accounts were never in danger at Bear Stearns. As for Lehman, the paperwork challenge will take time to resolve. Lehman's more than 600,000 accounts are roughly equal to the total that SIPC has had to manage in its entire history since 1970. But so far, the SIPC reports it is processing accounts as it always does, and customers are receiving their due.

As for the SEC, if commissioners took on a massive burden in 2004 without realizing they had signed up to safeguard the world's financial system, then they overreached. But they sure didn't "deregulate."
 

IamVooDoo

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Do you realise who owns the wall street journal? A Gentleman by the name of Rupert Murdoch, who also owned Fox News. The Wall street journal is by far the most right-wing bias newspaper in the country, so do you really expect them to blame wall street for the collapse? (They're even called the Wall street journal). BTW This is my second and last post in this thread, because my very first sentence asked for a mature debate and right afterward I get called "fucking lying marxist scum". Pretty immature...
The fact is that wall street DID cause the collapse. I was in America when it happened, they took out retarded bets and lost a lot of peoples money. Then they needed bailouts (which by the way they never paid back). Financial companies did give out loans they KNEW would fail (they're are leaked emails of wall street CEO's saying that they're loans would fail but they would make a lot of money). They took risks and when they lost, they all made record profits anyway because the government bailed them out and it's all good.
So anyway, I'm not in the mood for a drawn-out economic debate with people who watch Fox Newe, have Glenn Beck posters in their room, and call people who disagree with them "lying marxist scum", but to say that Wall street and deregulation didn't cause the collapse is ridiculous.
 

Valdek

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Do you realise who owns the wall street journal? A Gentleman by the name of Rupert Murdoch, who also owned Fox News. The Wall street journal is by far the most right-wing bias newspaper in the country, so do you really expect them to blame wall street for the collapse? (They're even called the Wall street journal). BTW This is my second and last post in this thread, because my very first sentence asked for a mature debate and right afterward I get called "fucking lying marxist scum". Pretty immature...
The fact is that wall street DID cause the collapse. I was in America when it happened, they took out retarded bets and lost a lot of peoples money. Then they needed bailouts (which by the way they never paid back). Financial companies did give out loans they KNEW would fail (they're are leaked emails of wall street CEO's saying that they're loans would fail but they would make a lot of money). They took risks and when they lost, they all made record profits anyway because the government bailed them out and it's all good.
So anyway, I'm not in the mood for a drawn-out economic debate with people who watch Fox Newe, have Glenn Beck posters in their room, and call people who disagree with them "lying marxist scum", but to say that Wall street and deregulation didn't cause the collapse is ridiculous.
thanks. I'm not amazing at expressing myself but thank you for your contribution and support here, all i'm asking is for a civilized debate without name-calling and ad hominem arguments that do nothing to progress the thread.
 

Lolsmith

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lol

conclusive proof to show you are wrong

"does nothing to progress the thread"

okay
 

Rothbard

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Do you realise who owns the wall street journal? A Gentleman by the name of Rupert Murdoch, who also owned Fox News.
Oh sweet then we should just disregard anything it says as it's obviously all lies.

The Wall street journal is by far the most right-wing bias newspaper in the country, so do you really expect them to blame wall street for the collapse? (They're even called the Wall street journal).
THE NAMES ARE THE SAME THEY MUST BE IN ON THE WHOLE THING. There is no doubt that WSJ are biased but the fundamentals of that argument are very, very strong. The cause of the crash was no *one* thing which is the point we've been trying to get across. Bankers making ridiuclous loans for their own benefit with government money doesn't sound very much like free market capitalism to me, it sounds like grotesquely corrupt corporatism, which it was.
BTW This is my second and last post in this thread, because my very first sentence asked for a mature debate and right afterward I get called "fucking lying marxist scum". Pretty immature...
You quoted the video and the guy directly which is absolutely stupid. There is no way that wages could have dropped in real terms because there is far more wealth now than there were in the 70's and the utility of that wealth is far increased for all members of society. Wages have dropped as a % of GDP primarily due to the rise of superannuation funds and other retirement funds. Dropping as a % of GDP is not an indication that they have dropped in value or worth and is disgusting misrepresentation, which is what you would expect from a marxist.
The fact is that wall street DID cause the collapse. I was in America when it happened, they took out retarded bets and lost a lot of peoples money.
No one is going to disagree with either of the premises in this system. The corrupt corporatist system went nuts because of the moral hazard provided through coverage by government agencies who were either deliberately malfeasant or asleep at the wheel. This isn't an issue of lack of regulation this is an issue of DIRECT COMPLICITY.

Then they needed bailouts (which by the way they never paid back). Financial companies did give out loans they KNEW would fail (they're are leaked emails of wall street CEO's saying that they're loans would fail but they would make a lot of money). They took risks and when they lost, they all made record profits anyway because the government bailed them out and it's all good.
You will not find a *single* person in this thread who agrees with government backed moral hazard or government backed bailouts because they are a criminal transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich on behalf of the callous borderline criminal activities of those in cahoots with the government.

So anyway, I'm not in the mood for a drawn-out economic debate with people who watch Fox Newe, have Glenn Beck posters in their room, and call people who disagree with them "lying marxist scum", but to say that Wall street and deregulation didn't cause the collapse is ridiculous.
Oh sweet it's so bad to have ad hominems so we'll have ad hominems ourselves. Can you even get Fox News in Australia? Or Glenn Beck? That's obviously what anyone who is paying attention to the situation and says in regards to "DURF DEREGULATION CAUSED THE CRISIS DERP" "I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that". They weren't 'deregulated' they were given the power to run roughshod off everyone without having to bear any of the consequences because they were propped up by the government.

The reason everyone jumped on the guy is he posted some idiot ranting about marxian benefits and marxian economics (Christ lets get some of that LTV goodness baby, fuck the price mechanism) and then said "THAT OUGHTTA SHUT YOU RIGHTISTS UP" "DON'T BOTHER POSTING RESPONSES AS THEY'VE ALL BEEN DESTROYED".

You'll find that marxists and austrians tend to have a *lot* in common when it comes to abuses of power by the government and the influence of corporatism. Again, capitalism is merely the ownership and ability to transfer title of property. Markets artificially distorted by moral hazard and actors acting irrationally in those markets because of said moral hazard is not a free market in any way, shape, or form.

Saying "CAPITALISM DID THIS" is as stupid as saying "GRAVITY DID 9/11" sure the buildings fell under the weight of gravity but there were those planes you know, that kinda destroyed the structure.
 

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I'm perfectly willing to argue with people if they're willing to show they're actually interested in the argument rather than trolling. Starting a thread and going "EAT IT FUCKTARDS NO DISCUSSION NECESSARY YOU'RE FUCKED" seems to be a *great* way to ingratiate yourself.
 

SylviaB

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thanks. I'm not amazing at expressing myself but thank you for your contribution and support here, all i'm asking is for a civilized debate without name-calling and ad hominem arguments that do nothing to progress the thread.
Ad hominem attacks?

You guys are the ones saying we're wrong becuase we're not david harvey and that the WSJ is wrong because they're the wall street journal.

Calling someone an idiot and then explaining why they're wrong is not an ad hominem attack. What you're doing is.
 

Rothbard

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No response from the douchebags yet, either.
 

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