The Greatest Book Ever Written (2 Viewers)

[sarevok]

Wasn't it Shakespeare who said there's only seven types of narrative you can tell (or something similar)? If that's the case, every single author has pretty much got some link to one beforehand. Every author is influenced by somenoe else.

Of course every author is influenced by another; no art is created in a vacuum. But there are different degrees of influence, and Jordan has modelled his entire story on Tolkien. Jordan should have recognition for what he has done with the genre - though that pales in comparison with Martin, Hobb, Mieville etc. - but Tolkien also deserves credit for inventing the conventions Jordan based his work upon.

Surely he was the first mainstream fantasy writer, but thre were bound to be others beforehand, even if they didn't have the same scope as he did.

Who? I would like to know another author who pioneered the epic fantasy genre that exists today. Jack Vance is the only one I can think of. There is a reason why Tolkien is referred to as the father of fantasy; there is a reason why Hobb, Martin and Jordan all cite him as their main influence.

I fail to see how Middle Earth had 'breadth and scope'.

Through the cultures and languages Tolkien invented. There are atlas', encyclopedias and dictionaries devoted to Middle Earth. It is important not to confuse accessability with depth.

 

[kami]

The point of the discussion was who is the better author out of Jordan and Tolkien - that was the point to which I responded. Now, logically, if one author has invented many conventions which another is utilising, then that author's originality, and the influence that author had over the other, should be taken into account.

If one author has invented many conventions that others use, then good on him, but that has got nothing to do with how well he used those conventions in comparison with another author. Which is exactly what the point was - myself and Argonaut view other author's as having accomplished this more successfully than Tolkien since the inception of Middle Earth.

Please stop with the pointless analogies, because that has nothing to do with the logic applied in this situation. Cinderella in no way influenced Angela Carter as much as Tolkien did Jordan. Jordan's story is entirely built on the model formed by Tolkien.

Please cease with the condescension. There is a whole subset of Carter's stories that revolve around toying with the fairytale conventions and this is the standard you have used for proclaiming all modern fantasy inferior to Tolkien - he did a convention first therefore he did it better.


In my personal opinion the best ares Robin Hobb, China Mieville, George R. Martin, perhaps Janny Wurts' Empire trilogy and yes the Malazan books by Steven Erikson that you dislike so much. And the common theme between them is that they have complex plots, strong descriptions, strong characterisations and on the whole they avoid becoming trite. Tolkien's work on the other hand, especially in the Silmarillion, has characters who aren't portrayed in a personal fashion - many of them don't act beyond the archetype such as Morgoth, Eru, the Valar and the religious references. Tolkien also does not sustain originality throughout all his works either as he even borrows and rehashes his own ideas - a flaw that plagues contemporary writers also(*cough* Jordan, Eddings and Douglass*cough*). The plotting also is not stellar, it involves little planning or complexity. He does however provide rich histories and cultures which I do in fact love, but over time I've realised that Middle Earth is more enjoyable than any of the works it is presented in which has contributed to my waning interests in his novels.

 

[sarevok]

If one author has invented many conventions that others use, then good on him, but that has got nothing to do with how well he used those conventions in comparison with another author.

I understand your point, but the author who invented the conventions deserves credit for his or her originality. And personally I think Jordan uses most of the conventions in a manner too similar to Tolkien for him to be regarded to be superior.

Please cease with the condescension. There is a whole subset of Carter's stories that revolve around toying with the fairytale conventions and this is the standard you have used for proclaiming all modern fantasy inferior to Tolkien - he did a convention first therefore he did it better.

Sorry, I did not mean to sound condescending. I simply do not think that such a strong link of seminality can be drawn from Cindirella to Carter. The fairy-tale structure has been omnipresent in literature for hundreds of years. The conventions Tolkien invented, and which Jordan adopted, are unique and to a large extent originate solely from Tolkien.

In my personal opinion the best ares Robin Hobb, China Mieville, George R. Martin, perhaps Janny Wurts' Empire trilogy and yes the Malazan books by Steven Erikson that you dislike so much. And the common theme between them is that they have complex plots, strong descriptions, strong characterisations and on the whole they avoid becoming trite.

Mieville's plots are in no way more complex than Tolkien's. In any case, I agree, you could take any of those authors and make a more compelling argument that they are better than Tolkien; and perhaps in the case of Martin, and certainly in the case of Mieville, I would be more inclined to agree. But I don't think you can do the same for Jordan.

I'm not mixing them up, but I think it would have been better for Tolkein to include some of that supplementary material in the actual works, rather than have them separate pieces (true, he may not have done all of them, I don't know). Not only would it have given a little more depth (let's face it, the books don't really explore all of Middle Earth), but it would have been a way of getting people to go out and read the extra texts.

Well, Tolkien wrote his work as a history and thus it is written as such. What it lacks in accessibility I think it more then makes up for in depth, and those who persevere in reading his less well-known work I think are rewarded for the effort.

 

[jhakka]

Who? I would like to know another author who pioneered the epic fantasy genre that exists today. Jack Vance is the only one I can think of. There is a reason why Tolkien is referred to as the father of fantasy; there is a reason why Hobb, Martin and Jordan all cite him as their main influence.

And that reason is because he wrote his books 50-odd years ago? Because he wrote his first?

 

[sarevok]

And that reason is because he wrote his books 50-odd years ago? Because he wrote his first?

Because he wrote his books first and was the progenitor of the entire genre...

 

[sarevok]

So? That's like saying vanilla's the best flavour of ice-cream because it's the original. But then you discover Royal Copenhagen's Cookies and Cream flavour ...

It is pretty obvious why Jordan's originality and influence is relevant in a discussion of who is the 'best' author.

 

[Benny_]

As far as fantasy goes, I find Robin Hobb a lot more compelling than Tolkein and Jordon combined. Books that spend most of their energy developing the world rather than interesting characters tend to bore me.

 

[Dayze]

Macbeth closely followed by To Kill a Mockingbird

 

[pLuvia]

most prob LOTR

 

[pLuvia]

lol.. sometimes it explains in "too much" detail, which gets really annoying but overall its mighty fine~~

 

[sarevok]

As Moiraine says in The Eye of the World, "That is a matter of taste, Master Bard. Some stories I like, and some I do not."

Yes, but I'm objectifying things

 

[kami]

So far it's mostly been the United Peoples of Middle Earth and the Confederation of RandLand slugging it out. We're winning.

But what of the Kingdom of le Hobb? Who is fighting for us? *sees kingdom crumble in the face of no support and jumps ship to confederacy*

 

[kita]

"A Brief History of Time" Interesting, and only has one formula.

hear hear

whats also good is "about time" by paul davies

 

[studynoob]

where's wally books provides me hours of excitement maybe its just cos im dumb haha

 

[King of Helview]

My favourite non-fiction is "The Prince" by Niccolo Machiavelli

My favourite fiction is "1984" by George Orwell but Leo Tolstoy's "Anna Karenina" is going to top it once I finish it

 

[basketcase89]

"Ulysess'' by Joyce and "Oh The Places You'll Go" by Dr Seuss. Do not underestimate the power of Dr Seuss.

 

[Ryken]

"The Forgotten Soldier" by Guy Sajer and "Birdsong" by stephen folks. Both are books that have such a profound impact that they've changed the way i see life

 

[Phanatical]

"The Latham Diaries" by Mark Latham.

 

[Katie123]

catcher in the rye - um the author is slipping my mind

 

[Katie123]

"Oh The Places You'll Go" by Dr Seuss. Do not underestimate the power of Dr Seuss.

oh that book is so good. we got it read to us at year meetings all the way through yr 12 and then i bought it as well. Memories