The Individual and Society (2 Viewers)

[s2ophie]

The gang eh!

Um one comment, you said 'Austen' doesn't go as far. You need to be careful as we actually studied langton's text. I know you probably know this but just so no one else is confused!

Originally posted by Afro
But as a guy i recognise that in essence P&P is a romantic fantasy that in actual society would never have occured... Browning and Ibsen say it as it realy is no need for this mushy stuff to cover up the truths of the subject..

You are right in saying that P&P is a romantic fantasy but even though the ending might be unbelievable in the context of the society, you need to understand that the composer is using the story to advocate a moderate social change where love can conquer social boundaries. Pride and prejudices should not come in the way of a felicitatious marriage.

thats all i have to say right now but shit i should do some revision! but i have three exams before extension !!!!!!!!!

 

[Jinglebell]

Originally posted by s2ophie
Um one comment, you said 'Austen' doesn't go as far. You need to be careful as we actually studied langton's text. I know you probably know this but just so no one else is confused!

yeah good point, i was gonna say something about the adaptation after that, but apparently got distracted in my ramblings

 

[Almost There]

damn the lot of u! soo not fair!! we had to do n&s (officailly one of the crappest book ever) browning (who rocks) and dolls house (go nora)

hehe why oh why did i do eng ext?? and u got to pick ur tocpis?? no way! ours was none optional-i&s or death.

and offense to the p&p pep squad but ugg. we did that book in yr 9 and it was the first school book i did not read. couldnt get past the third chapter. (of course i was in yr 9...i think 14 is a bit young...) loved the movie but the book...ugg.

for supp text-age of innocence. its the crapest movie in history and i cannot stand it...but everytime our teach chucks a sick day they make up watch it. i ahve seen it 5 times since yr 8 so i figure i might as well take advantage of having to use it!!

adn my other text (oh literary geniius that i am) is a painting!! its called sunday-but an anoymous french painter. actully i ahve no idea who its by and is saw it once on the internet at the start of 2002 but oh well i know it exisits and my friend saw it as well so we both know its out there somewhere....

ok well i have read the texts....and i know the individuals...now waht? help!!!

 

[s2ophie]

Originally posted by Almost There
and offense to the p&p pep squad but ugg. we did that book in yr 9 and it was the first school book i did not read. couldnt get past the third chapter. (of course i was in yr 9...i think 14 is a bit young...) loved the movie but the book...ugg.

i read the book in year 4! it coincided with the series being on TV and i watched a few of the episodes with my mum. so i read the book and then watched it when it was replayed. My favourite chapter of the book is chapter 61 becuase you know thye live happily ever after!

we could choose which elective we wanted and came close to choosing RFTG but it was the darcy factor all the way!

 

[braindrainedAsh]

Glad we picked P&P, the castle is only funny so many times, while Mr Darcy never decreases in hotness...

 

[emily]

ugh, we didn't get to choose, never ever ever would i have chosen n&s soo browning any day over that shit.

mergh, no wonder i haven't read it.

hah, hope i can get away with jsut p&p and ADH on firday!!

 

[ssssonicyouth]

i don't care what any of you say- p&p is crap..

markers can smell the oestrogen when it comes up in essays and it lacks. Since when should you be allowed to write about colin firth being wet? REALLY!?!?!

it's the equivalent of me writing about baywatch: 'the red colour of their swimsuits symbolizes passion; their passion for lifesaving which transcends social restrictions!! Furthermore, silicone 'props' are incorporated by hasselhof to weigh down the female characters from the chest, and this is analogous to the burden of conforming to social expectations'

edit: after typing that message i actually wish that i could have studied baywatch for I&S

 

[ilovemrchips]

ROFL ROFL ROFL

ssssonicyouth, that was a niiiiiice incisive comment =}

 

[Afro]

Originally posted by Jinglebell
P&P is a critique of social values, even though Austen doesn't go as far as Browning or Ibsen in that her characters end up embracing the social mores they have rebelled against - P&P is a gentle criticism.

Hold on rite.. I Get What ure saying about P&P being a gentle critisicm but does that give me room to critise the individuality of Elizabeth as in comparison to Nora who defies society and does not end up conforming...
As well im thinking bout doin "Crime and Punishment" by Fyodor Doestovsky as my supplementary text u think that would be a bad idea because it isnt so based on the same values coming from a different context in Russia?

 

[Jinglebell]

Originally posted by Afro
Hold on rite.. I Get What ure saying about P&P being a gentle critisicm but does that give me room to critise the individuality of Elizabeth as in comparison to Nora who defies society and does not end up conforming...

depends on the question...i think sometimes you're just gonna shoot yourself in the foot if you start criticising your texts. you could obviously mention the eventual conformity of Elizabeth, in contrast to Nora...but you could also mention the different situations of the composers (or in P&P's case the original composer) - Ibsen was in much more of a position to have a text about a 'true' individual published, in my opinion...that, and the purposes of the texts are fairly different. basically i think you have to take everything into account before you go straight-out criticising things, to show that you know your stuff.

as for 'crime & punishment', i haven't had time to get to russian literature yet so i couldn't tell you...i don't know when it's set, but i know it was written in the 20th century...if you can contrast the different societies at the same time, then i guess it would be ok, but other than that i'd be a little wary. but then again, i'm certainly not an expert, so feel free to disagree with me

 

[Bolkonski]

Originally posted by Afro
in comparison to Nora who defies society and does not end up conforming...

hold on... Nora does not defy conventions or defy conformity because she has absolutely no idea of what society is. She is merely unconsciously defying the social norms of motherhood, etc etc etc...

Nora's character is to act in her own well being. She flirts with Rank cause she feels like it, she denies Mrs Linde a room for the night knowing full well they are a well off, well housed middle class family. She eats macaroons not because Torvald tells her not to but because she wants to. She didnt save Torvald because his life depended upon it, she simply wanted to prove to herself she could do things by herself. Why else do you think the issue of dependancy is in the play so much.. Torvald on more than one occasion accuses her of independance (or the want of it)...

 

[Afro]

By being an individual that is how she is defying society society dictates that confromity is the norm and that one should not only be aware of it but stick to it to the utmost degree... therefore Nora is more then defying society she is ignoring it ...rite??

 

[Afro]

hahaha Oh yah i hammered Elizabeth in My trial Essay and the teachers were like um dun do dat its a bit harsh and blah blah... Ok ill try not to..

 

[Afro]

"Mr. Bingley was an example of a man who entered in the aristocracy through this means although on a lower scale. Mr. Bingleys father earned him a fortune through the cotton industry in the north of England and through his marriage with Jane Bennet he gains the position of a name of a gentleman amongst society through her fathers heritage. " <p>Is this totally wrong??? </p>

 

[emily]

um, kinda - seeing as the reason darcy wanted to keep bingley and jane apart was because the match would do bingley no good - the bennets, although still in the gentry, are below them. (also he thought jane didn't feel that strongly for B so it wouldn't matter.)

first bit's right though!

 

[s2ophie]

Originally posted by Afro
"Mr. Bingley was an example of a man who entered in the aristocracy through this means although on a lower scale. Mr. Bingleys father earned him a fortune through the cotton industry in the north of England and through his marriage with Jane Bennet he gains the position of a name of a gentleman amongst society through her fathers heritage. " <p>Is this totally wrong??? </p>

um...i imagine you got the bit about the cotton industry from Austens text. langton gave no indication of this and i was left thinking that Bingley and Darcy had certainly married below themselves. You kind of imply that Jane does Bingley a favour in marrying him when it is totally the other way around

 

[+:: $i[Q]u3 ::+]

times were changing.. maybe 50 years back, jane would have been doing bingley a favour by giving him a title. But the rise of the middle class (and bingley is the middle class) meant wealth, social position and power could be gained by social and economic means, not just by inherited titles. So Mr Bennet's position as part of the gentry is becoming obsolete (also showed in the entailment of his property as he leaves the girls penniless) and the sisters need to marry well in order to maintain their relaxed lifestyle.

 

[clerisy]

what's your opinion on Lydia in P&P, in terms of individual and society, and self-determination??? I have difficulty fitting her into my ideas... Because she too is challenging society's values-- is it her lack of intention and consideration that makes her different to Lizzy? She does not follow convention, like Lizzy, and so why is she 'bad' and Elizabeth 'good'?

 

[~TeLEpAtHeTiC~]

the way i c it-- Austen presents Lydia not as a character of self-determination, rather a reflection of the male perspective of women like Lizzy whom strive to hold their own as an idividual. Lydia isnt ment to be an inspiring character and yet she remains critical in studying the period because she is a stereotype of 'freedom loving' and rebellious woman in a patriorical society.

woow.. havent thought about anything analytically for quiet some time =?
anyway, thats the way i interpreted Lydia in P&P although i only now came to that understanding-- go me; thinkin up all this crap post HSC!!

hope it helped!
lisa =?

 

[s2ophie]

You say htat lydia challenges society's values where i would argue that rather than challenge she ignores them. Lydia has little regard for social propriety and it is possible that for this reason that she is considered bad. Lizzy challenges social convention but she does so in a manner that allows her to fit within a social mould. Lizzy understands that when Lydia runs off the Bennets will lose social standing and possible one of the main reasons for her anguish is that she knows that she cannot challenge society or find happiness without social standing. Had the Lydia/Wickham debacle eventuated as Lizzy predicted (and had it not been saved by Darcy) Lizzy would love her independence and autonmy that she had striven for. She would be forced to marry to regain standing.

Lydia could also be seen as a contrast to Lizzy. Her evident intention to marry whoever contrasts Lizzy's desire to marry for love.

Also remember that Lydia is only 15. And that in her being out, she is breaking social decorum.

thats all i can think of right now. My brain is a bit rusty of late!