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Times Higher Education 2005 World Rankings: USyd ranked higher than UNSW (1 Viewer)

Generator

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Give it up, Manlychief. Minai's point stands, and all...well, most USyd students on this forum would agree.

As with Minai, this isn't to say that we alone are arrogant, but rather that with respect to issues such as this our arrogance shines through.
 
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Minai

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Generator said:
Give it up, Manlychief. Minai's point stands, and all...well, most USyd students on this forum would agree.

As with Minai, this isn't to say that we alone are arrogant, but rather that with respect to issues such as this our arrogance shines through.
Yes.
The fact that this thread and most of the Usyd students have boasted that "oh, look, USyd ranked higher" just shows arrogance.

From my perspective, Usyd has always been the most prestigious uni around, and most informed people would tend to agree. So why the need for the whole "look, we are obviously the best" attitude? It's already pretty common knowledge..
 

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Wasn't it frigid who started this thread? ie, from UNSW?
 

sikeveo

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Minai said:
Yes.
The fact that this thread and most of the Usyd students have boasted that "oh, look, USyd ranked higher" just shows arrogance.

From my perspective, Usyd has always been the most prestigious uni around, and most informed people would tend to agree. So why the need for the whole "look, we are obviously the best" attitude? It's already pretty common knowledge..
That's because many of their degrees aren't the best.
 

LeftrightOut

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So let me ask a question.
If a university is voted as best in say 2005, does that mean the people who graduate in 2005 are considered "better" or those who start in 2005?

See my thinking is if you are the "best" uni in 2005 then the people who are graduating are really from 2002 when the uni could have been not "the best" so the ranking from 2002 does not apply to 2005. However the people who start in 2005 well they really haven't contributed anything yet so perhaps to see how good 2005 is the uni should win the award in 2008. Of course we could talk about lecturers as well. If a guy joins the team in 2005 when they win the award does it mean he is suddenly the "best" or does he need to be on the team before the award is judged to be included? how about a guy who was there when the judging went on but has since left, does the "goodness" of the award no longer belong to him? Say it was judged in 2004 when the guy was there but he left in December 2004 and the award presented just now, does the goodness rub off on him or is he shunned because he might work elsewhere now? What about if a large number of team members left since the judging and all switched to the same university, should the new university now assume the mantle by default? How about if the uni is the best but also the worst? Sure you might have some of the brightest but you could also have some of the slowest, is it a means tested system or simply using medians? How extereme are the outliers?

In conclusion arguing about silly back patting awards makes about as much sense as the paragraph above.
 

Omnidragon

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Minai said:
Yes.
The fact that this thread and most of the Usyd students have boasted that "oh, look, USyd ranked higher" just shows arrogance.

From my perspective, Usyd has always been the most prestigious uni around, and most informed people would tend to agree. So why the need for the whole "look, we are obviously the best" attitude? It's already pretty common knowledge..
You suggest USyd is the best. I do not want to comment on that.

But I'm just wondering: what's wrong with being proud of one's uni's achievement? I'm sure you're proud of UNSW's rank too.

Now for the previous poster...

I don't know why you are so ready to dismiss the relevance of the rankings. What then do you think are more relevant indications? USyd students dissing UNSW and promoting their own uni, or UNSW students dissing USyd and proting their own uni?

Give the survey some credit for heaven's sake.
 

LeftrightOut

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Omnidragon said:
Now for the previous poster...

I don't know why you are so ready to dismiss the relevance of the rankings. What then do you think are more relevant indications? USyd students dissing UNSW and promoting their own uni, or UNSW students dissing USyd and proting their own uni?

Give the survey some credit for heaven's sake.
IMHO to believe in rankings is to believe that as an individual you inherit solely the properties of the environment of your educational setting rather than the myriad of other factors. It's like saying you are a great swimmer because Ian Thorpe is Australian, or that the US is the best sporting nation in the world because they win the most medals at the Olympics but ignoring the fact that a large number of their normal population is morbidly obese. It's absolute BS.

Yes there are some things you might only learn at a University with a particle accelerator but then again you can't compare that to a University without a particle accelerator that does not offer that course. To say one is "better" than another by a factor of X places due to this or other reasons is nonsense because there are many hidden reasons that never make it into the equation for a full picture. Same with the idea of lecturer rankings, a hard marking lecturer might be hated by many but admired by others for being honest about their quality of work.

Edit to add: More relevant indicators? Do they offer the course you want to do? Do you have the marks to get in? Can you afford it? if so and it's something you want to learn about then you might go. Everything else is up to interpretation because it involves opinions and agendas other than your own.
 
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Omnidragon

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I'd hate to come from a postmodern perspective. There are always going to certain aspects used more readily by people to determine rankings. For example, prestige is one factor.

I'm not here to say that these are necessarily the right aspects. I am neutral in that regard. I simply want to suggestion that these rankings are created by the interaction of social forces and human behaviour, which together render some things more centralised with Foucault's distribution of power more so than others.

In other words, some factors are just inevitably more highly regarded than others in a general sense because of the social context in which we live in. That's not to say these factors are always more accurate. It's just that everything is, in a sense, revolving around relativism.

I agree with all the factors you've listed, and I guess it's a very subjective issue. However, there are certain things that people IN GENERAL (and of course, there are lots of people who don't agree or just vary the agreement) always employ to evaluate a university.

And unfortunately, no matter how much you try to dismiss these rankings, there are going to be heaps of people out there who will select a university on the basis of these rankings and hence the aspects these rankings used to evaluate. And I stick with the reason that it's not because these rankings are RIGHT or ABSOLUTE, but because the hegemony of various social forces point towards this direction of dominant thinking.
 

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I tend to agree with omnidragon on the topic of rankings. Most people here like to dismiss the methodologies behind it but aren't able to provide an alternative. BTW, I don't go to USYD or UNSW. :p
 
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those ratings mean shit-all. UWS didn't even make it? UWS has some really good courses but because they're not the most popular ones, they don't get considered. Times ratings are really crap.
 

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natstar, 'good' courses count for nothing in a ranking system that is primarily concerned with research performance. Please, many of us have already made note of our arrogance, but there's no need to incite a rabid debate with such a post.
 
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Νatstar

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Don't call me arrogant!. I'm merely stating the facts. I even spoke to my marketing professor who told me that the research at UWS rivals other unis, nay surpasses them. What are you basing your conceited argument on?
 

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Are you even capable of reading what is on the screen, natstar? I would have thought that given past 'debates' and the comments on the previous page that the 'us' to which I referred happens to be the forum's USyders. As for the 'facts', well, I could quite easily pull however many facts about how institutions like USyd, Melbourne, ANU, UNSW, Monash, etc. blow UWS out of the water when it comes to research for the institution as a whole.

Please, UWS may well be a great institution, but you're not going to prove such a thing to us by deriding other institutions in the process.
 

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Haha crap, it was a fake account. Aren't I the foo?l :)
 

stazi

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teeeheee :0 yes you are. i think i got her persona right though, don't you think :p
 

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stazi said:
teeeheee :0 yes you are. i think i got her persona right though, don't you think :p
Haha yes, but I think that you took a few liberties with the spelling... There's no need to be too good :p.
 
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Personally, I did not mind the times rankings.

I was discussing world university rankings with an international student from Norway, and he said that he thought USYD (which was 100 places below his home university) had a better quality of candidate.
 

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