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To drop down or not? That is the question (1 Viewer)

Virtual_Wonderer

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hey everyone, I'm debating whether or not to drop down from maths advanced into standard. This is my first week of year 12 and I just got my prelim marks back. Needless to say it's low enough for me to be considering it, since a band 5 or 6 is still a high band even if its standard, over a band 3 in advanced. I'm doubtful as to whether I could achieve a band 5 in the advanced course, and I want to maximise my atar marks, I'll worry about requirements later. Should I drop it or wait until this term's test?

Grateful for any advice or any experiences from people that have dropped down, thank you in advance
 

AsuTeksu

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Hey there!

I'm an Advanced Maths student so my input may or may not be of any help.

I was at a Band 2/3 level after finishing Prelims which was one of the most demoralising things I have ever experienced. Although, I didn't drop since I needed the subject for my degree. I pushed through and I'm currently at a Band 5/6 level. So it is possible to bounce back! (Provided you're willing to put in the effort and whatnot).

There has been a lot of "experiencing sharing" on the forums here regarding this topic. It really is all up to you and your capabilities!

I advise you wait until the first assessment and see how you go, HOWEVER, you must put a genuine effort in. If you know you can't/won't put the effort in to do Advanced, it probably is better to drop.

There's a lot of people who have dropped though (that received low bands in Advanced) and are now in high bands for Standard.

Again, it's all up to you! but hopefully my input was of some help! :D
 

carrotsss

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Don't drop. The design of scaling is such that if you put identical effort into both subjects you'll get an identical ATAR. However, standard will almost undoubtedly mean that you will put in less effort. For this reason, in my opinion if you're aiming for even a somewhat high ATAR you should pretty much never do Maths Standard unless your school forces you - that isn't to say there's anything wrong with people who do standard, it's just logically not worth it if you're aiming for a high ATAR.
 

carrotsss

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Would an atar of like 88 - 93 be achievable doing standard, given that you do well in your other subjects
Virtually any ATAR is achievable with standard (though extremely high ATARs are difficult because 100 only scales to 92), and in theory if someone is motivated enough to keep putting the same amount of effort into standard as they would into advanced, then there should be no difference.
 

Virtual_Wonderer

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Okay thanks for the replies guys, after reading these and talking with my friends i've decided to wait it out until the term 4 test. If I get a band 4 or higher I'm going to keep advanced, I'll put in the effort like Asu said thx so much
 

sainzsgf

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Okay thanks for the replies guys, after reading these and talking with my friends i've decided to wait it out until the term 4 test. If I get a band 4 or higher I'm going to keep advanced, I'll put in the effort like Asu said thx so much
Keep it, I barely scrapped a pass for maths but my teacher said if you got at least above 40 then you should be alright. Find your weak areas in the year 11 content and try and brush them up this year so by the time year 12 starts to properly kick off at the start of next year you won't be drowing in new concepts.

good luck!!
 

carrotsss

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Okay thanks for the replies guys, after reading these and talking with my friends i've decided to wait it out until the term 4 test. If I get a band 4 or higher I'm going to keep advanced, I'll put in the effort like Asu said thx so much
keep in mind a band 4 ≠ a raw mark above 70
 

carrotsss

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is math advanced even worth if you’re getting a band 4 raw mark?
im not really sure what you mean? if you mean if maths adv is worth it if you’re getting a 70-80 raw mark then definitely, that’s solidly into band 5 aligned marks territory and almost a band 6. if you mean getting a borderline band 4 aligned (which is a raw mark of approximately 40) then it’s a different story, it’s probably not really worth it ATAR-wise (a 70 aligned is the equivalent of an ATAR slightly below 70) so if someone was aiming for a high ATAR and getting that sort of mark they’d probably be best off just dropping maths entirely (because standard wouldn’t grant a higher atar anyway) unless it’s a requirement for their course, such as at usyd or if they want to take maths for the actual content and skills it provides
 

year10studentpreparin

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just do standard maths and get band 6 and 5 and its fine.
who even needs a 99 atar except the most niche people and people who wanna suffer in med.
 

carrotsss

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just do standard maths and get band 6 and 5 and its fine.
who even needs a 99 atar except the most niche people and people who wanna suffer in med.
doing maths standard encourages putting in less effort, I would make the argument that if they are aiming for an ATAR even above something like 85 then it would be detrimental to their ATAR for no purpose
 

sainzsgf

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just do standard maths and get band 6 and 5 and its fine.
who even needs a 99 atar except the most niche people and people who wanna suffer in med.
yeah if its not a course requirement then drop. only reason i plan on keeping advanced is because its the absolute hardest math level im willing to do and most engineering courses require at least extension 1 lol
 

Sam14113

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Don't drop. The design of scaling is such that if you put identical effort into both subjects you'll get an identical ATAR. However, standard will almost undoubtedly mean that you will put in less effort. For this reason, in my opinion if you're aiming for even a somewhat high ATAR you should pretty much never do Maths Standard unless your school forces you - that isn't to say there's anything wrong with people who do standard, it's just logically not worth it if you're aiming for a high ATAR.
Not sure your explanation is 100% — the system seems to me like it’s designed such that if every student put the same amount of time into each of their subjects then they should get the same mark (with a couple of minor, but usually irrelevant caveats).

So my assumption (and seemingly yours) that usually students taking standard put in less time than students taking advanced means that you don’t need to put in as much time into standard than advanced to get the same mark.

Either way, the system is secondary - the choice is really yours. If you need advanced for some course you may consider doing, then definitely keep it. Otherwise if you aren’t enjoying it and are struggling with it there’s no shame in doing standard - it’s a really underrated course in my opinion thats actually pretty decent for exposing you a variety of situations where you may need math (I don’t know btw, I don’t take it I can only tell you from my limited research) but if you’re going to hate math adv and you don’t need it, there’s no good reason to take it

EDIT: To clarify, ‘you’ in paragraphs 1 and 2 refer to Carrotsss and in paragraph 3 to Virtual_Wonderer
 

Sam14113

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doing maths standard encourages putting in less effort, I would make the argument that if they are aiming for an ATAR even above something like 85 then it would be detrimental to their ATAR for no purpose
I’m also not sure about this - I personally put in a lot less effort into English than I did into Math even though (or maybe because) I found English MUCH more difficult
 

carrotsss

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Not sure your explanation is 100% — the system seems to me like it’s designed such that if every student put the same amount of time into each of their subjects then they should get the same mark (with a couple of minor, but usually irrelevant caveats).

So my assumption (and seemingly yours) that usually students taking standard put in less time than students taking advanced means that you don’t need to put in as much time into standard than advanced to get the same mark.

Either way, the system is secondary - the choice is really yours. If you need advanced for some course you may consider doing, then definitely keep it. Otherwise if you aren’t enjoying it and are struggling with it there’s no shame in doing standard - it’s a really underrated course in my opinion thats actually pretty decent for exposing you a variety of situations where you may need math (I don’t know btw, I don’t take it I can only tell you from my limited research) but if you’re going to hate math adv and you don’t need it, there’s no good reason to take it
The scaling for a subject is determined based on the performance of the cohort in english (or in the case of maths, a common scale is used, so it’s based on the common questions/subjects between courses). The overall effect of scaling is NOT that identical effort (assuming all else such as relative aptitude to the average person in the subject area is equal, which should be the case for maths given it’s one subject area) produces an identical aligned mark (ie the one you receive on results day), it is that an identical amount of effort should produce an identical scaled mark, which is used in the calculation of the ATAR. The flaw of taking maths standard is that in almost all cases (I’ve seen it happen over and over), students who drop to standard tend to put in less effort than they would in advanced, rather wasting the extra time (which it goes without saying will have a negative impact on atar) or spending the extra time on other subjects, which still has a negative impact, as given that maths is their weakest subject, the increase in scaled marks which is produced by an increase in effort in maths is much more significant. If a student’s ability in maths is poor and they wish to get a high ATAR then standard won’t increase their scaled mark, and the optimal decision (once again, purely from an ATAR perspective) would be to drop maths entirely. It is indisputable that dropping to maths standard is a poor decision purely from an ATAR perspective.

As I acknowledged in my original post, there are absolutely merits to taking standard if ATAR is not the primary consideration. For people entering non-STEM based fields in university, into the workforce or into a trade following high school, if ATAR is not super important for their future endeavours, then standard is absolutely a good choice. And as I said, there is no shame at all in doing standard.
 

carrotsss

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I’m also not sure about this - I personally put in a lot less effort into English than I did into Math even though (or maybe because) I found English MUCH more difficult
Maths and English are entirely different subject areas, in which interest and aptitude may vary significantly, which is a significant influence on the amount of effort one will put into a subject. Maths Standard and Advanced are the same subject area, so if one lacks an aptitude and interest in one level of maths, it is quite unlikely that they will find an aptitude and interest in another level of maths.
 

carrotsss

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85??? But what if you get high marks in standard though like 90+
As I said it’s still very possible to achieve any ATAR in standard, it just requires more motivation to continue putting in the same amount of effort despite the appearance of higher raw marks, it’s just not recommended because very few people will follow through on that.
 

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