UN envoy hits Israel 'apartheid' (4 Viewers)

[JayB]

no, i'm making it very simple jordan.

they voted, for whatever reason, for a government that not only condones, but encourages the brutal genocide of jews, and the destruction of israel. they either sympethise with this view, or are happy to ignore it. thats damn simple.

people around the world then cry and bitch when the "aggressor" israel doesnt want to negotiate with a government whose staple belief isnt the raising up of the arabic or islamic population, nor the restructuralisation of the palestinian nation, but with jewish and israeli blood. simple, no?

 

[Jordan.J]

MOSCOW (AFX) - Hamas will end its armed struggle against Israel if the Jewish state withdraws from all occupied Palestinian territories, its leader told Russian daily Nezavisimaya Gazeta in an interview.

'If Israel recognizes our rights and pledges to withdraw from all occupied lands, Hamas, and the Palestinian people together with it, will decide to halt armed resistance,' the radical Islamist group's supremo Khaled Meshaal said.

http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/afx/2006/02/12/afx2519867.html

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They're willing to negotiate, so why not you?

 

[Aryanbeauty]

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They're willing to negotiate, so why not you?

israel is willing to negotiate if hamas stopped its terrorist activities why not you?

 

[JayB]

jordan, you have to wonder what that is really worth. the far more liberal FATAH movement made "promises" of negotiation and halting of millitary activities in the past, and they came to nothing.

secondly, why should israel negotiate with HAMAS. they call for its destruction. hows that negotiation gonna go? "hey, we want you jews to fucking stop existing for one second, so we can claim our ancestral rights, k?" "sure, want a burger while were gone?".

there isnt anything to negotiate while HAMAS refuses to recognise israels existance, because they just dont realise that israel is there. so atm, they're just proposing to shut theselves ina room and talk to themselves for a few hours. much more their style.

 

[Jordan.J]

It helps to read things before posting

If Israel recognizes our rights and pledges to withdraw from all occupied lands, Hamas, and the Palestinian people together with it, will decide to halt armed resistance

 

[JayB]

i did read it, and i discarded the validity of the claim due to their beleifs, past experience, and common sense.

to a radical islamic organisation, occuped lands are any that were ever islamic, especially the holy land of israel. therefore withdrawing from all occupied lands means withdrawing FROM ISRAEL. i belive the exact quote reads:

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up." taken directly from the HAMAS charter.

 

[Jordan.J]

But they're willing to negotiate, Israel should sit with them. Thats the point. They wanted to halt their armed resistance.

You asked before what have the Palestinians put on the table, well heres one example.

You shouldnt put words in their mouth, what they meant was perfectly clear

 

[JayB]

negotiate what? i havent put words in their mouth, they put the words on their charter. israel has repeatedly said that they are more than willing to negotiate if HAMAS will acknowledge that the state of israel exists. they dont, and yet they still call for its destruction. the reason they say they are willing to negotiate is that they know that while they refuse to accede this, israel will always seem the bad guy for refusing to negotiate its own destruction.

if they wanted to halt their armed resistance, they would. you dont say a killer wants to stop murdering, they either stop, or they are clinically insane, and require punishment or treatment. not negotiation. worse than this, they pervert their children, sending them to die in the most cowardly manner, in the most despicable acts. not signs that a government wants peace.

 

[Jordan.J]

negotiate what?

A peace deal

They're willing.

israel has repeatedly said that they are more than willing to negotiate if HAMAS will acknowledge that the state of israel exists.

Thats part of the negotiation process.

Go to the table and say that.

You make your demands during the process, not before

 

[JayB]

they dont acknowledge that there is anyone to negotiate with. if israel agrees to go to the table with them, it grants them a legitimacy that is a precedent that insures her eventual destruction. HAMAS is a terrorist government, with pretty much the same ideals of Nazi germany, and the same disregard for human existance and ideas about humanity. what negotiation?

 

[JayB]

willing is not sending homicide bombers onto busses. not calling for your enemies death at every phrase. building up your infrastructure and trading peacefully. HAMAS has no intentions of this.

 

[Jordan.J]

they dont acknowledge that there is anyone to negotiate with.

So they want to talk to themselves?

Theres no harm in going to the table. If they're willing to stop their armed resistance and recognise Israel, then I dont see what the big deal is.

If you want them to agree with everything before you start negotiating then there is no point in negotiating in the first place.

 

[JayB]

to be honest, i dont think they want to talk to themselves as much as they just want to talk, and distract, and cause hatred and death. i'm completly cynical of anything positive that HAMAS can do except commit a peaceful political suicide, and abdicate their position to a govt. that will look after their peoples best interests, namely, peace.

the harm in going to the table is as i stated previously, is granting legitimacy to a terrorist organisation. if israel does this, pretty much spells doom.

besides which, 'actions speak much louder than words' an aphorism i believe has great bearing in politics. HAMAS encourages violence and death, and their actions reek of it. they dont want peace. they have no benefit from it.

and for some strange reason i dont think there is any point in negotiating with terrorists.

 

[Jordan.J]

Israel believes Hezbollah are terrorists, they negotiated with them. So there goes your theory

You dont negotiate a peace deal with people you're already at peace with. They're offering an olive branch, why not take it.

Being so cynical wont get you anywhere

 

[JayB]

i think my cynisism is well justified. HAMAS is in a position where they could end the conflict in a second if they halted armed warfare. its not resistance, its aggression. to quote something ive heard for a while, "if HAMAS put down their weapons, there would be no war. if israel put down their weapons, there would be no israel".

HAMAS has the previous track record of killing people bloodthirstily, they need to make some show of faith that entering into a peace deal with them wont just be as collosal a waste.

"six Kassam rockets were fired into Israel - less than a day after Russian officials claimed that Hamas promised to end the attacks." march 9th 07, "http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/121702". this isnt a display of peaceful intent.

 

[HotShot]

similar in what way? you've made that claim before, but never substantiated it. its an easy thing to say, much harder to justify.

Wtf i posted two or three long posts explaining in why I believe that Israel is similar to a terrorist organisation.

plus, it may be that i'm not looking hard enough, but i've yet to come across any serious condemation of any palestinian terrorist action. at all.

I dont think you have been looking at all, What about the sanction posed on Palestine rite now - a host of them. They cannot have their military, Israel, America and numerous have blocked finances to Palestine. Israel has a FUcken Wall around them! What more sanctions do you want? America, Australia and some other countries does not recognise the Palestinian government????

and they can put sanctions against the arabic nations that call for israel's destruction. which they don't.

What Arabic nations? Iran? America restrict Iran from developing nuclear power. What kind of sanction do you want to be placed and why?

"six Kassam rockets were fired into Israel - less than a day after Russian officials claimed that Hamas promised to end the attacks." march 9th 07, "http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/121702". this isnt a display of peaceful intent.

That was Hamas's Promise what was Israel's? Isnt it that biased source? coming from "Israelnationalnews"?

Israel believes Hezbollah are terrorists, they negotiated with them. So there goes your theory

Israel didnt negotiate with Hezbollah the whole point of the kidnapping of ISraeli soldiers was to some kind of negotiation with Israel to release Palestinian prisoners which ISrael refused!

You claim Hamas, and other factions are not trustworthy and not credible- fair enough. But you must realise that Israel is also not credible either - this is view that the world shares even America.

i think my cynisism is well justified. HAMAS is in a position where they could end the conflict in a second if they halted armed warfare. its not resistance, its aggression. to quote something ive heard for a while, "if HAMAS put down their weapons, there would be no war. if israel put down their weapons, there would be no israel"

It would be foolish to think that. IF HAmas put down their weapons -nothing would happen. Israel would not give back the occupied territories they will not negotiate or even care of the Palestinians.
Israel need not put down their weapons - but they definetly need to start by giving something first. They need to pro-active becausse they afford to be. AMerica is their to support them. Who is there to support Palestine? Look at the situation now - Palestinian have nothing to live for basically and they live only in hope. That is why they resort to violence, when you have nothing to live for? you have nothing to lose.

Give the Palestinian something to lose? And they will think twice before picking up that AK-47!.

Also, If you agree That Israel has sanctions placed on them, and that ISrael is not abiding by these sanctions, then how can you expect Arab nations to abide sanctions placed on them and thus whats the point on placing it on Arab nations?

 

[S1M0]

What Arabic nations? Iran? America restrict Iran from developing nuclear power. What kind of sanction do you want to be placed and why?

I figured i'll just point out that Iran is isn't an arabic nation, its persian. People always seem to get that point mixed up.

And regarding how my 11-page thread seem to have turned out, i think that they're both contributing to the escalating violence. When Israel launches bombs into the Palestinian terrorities, they tend to kill innocents. These innocents have family.Their family suffers.They feel pain. Then Hatred. Then the fanatical words of the fundementalist muslims sinks into them, then they become increasingly hostile, until they become so filled with hatred that they decide to kill,harm and discriminate Christians in Palestine, and to kill themselves as suicide bombers. They turn on their own people, blinded by hatred. And on other innocents.

Then these suicide bombers kill an Israeli, they suffer too. They too feel pain. They too begin to hate. Until they discriminate against all arabs and all muslims, whether they are muslim or no, and whether they are good, bad, moderate or fundementalist.

 

[JayB]

uh uh uh, thats not a UN sanction, it is an american and israeli sanction, although im happy to be proven wrong if you can produce the un resolution outlining their stance. im pretty sure it isnt a un sanction (99%). and the un have put sanctions on iran, and iran has flaunted them, the main breakers of un resolutions are the arabic world and israel, equally really.

i would agree that the source is biased in an opiniated sense, and that the author's opinion is gonne be pro israel, but what i quoted was fact, not opinion, and is therefore exempt from bias, unless you question the validity of it, in which case ill find something to back it up.

isarel has left it open that if hamas accept israels right to exist and cease their violent and homicidal activities, they will be welcome to any peace conference.

i dont know how credible israel is in the eyes of the world, but i would ask why you think they dont have credibility. what of their word have they gone back on?

i think that in israels past, when the palestinians played nice, israel played nice, the same with the arabs. it has only defended herself, not instigated.

i understand their hoplessness perfectly, and i understand their feeling of necessity to resort to it, but i dont condone it.


but i definately agree taht something should be given to the palestinians, but i dont think it should be through HAMAS. i dont see any peace through them. i see the need for a, quote myself "govt. that will look after their peoples best interests, namely, peace." like you said yourself, "You claim Hamas, and other factions are not trustworthy and not credible- fair enough"

 

[Jordan.J]

i think my cynisism is well justified. HAMAS is in a position where they could end the conflict in a second if they halted armed warfare

They said they're willing to do that.

HAMAS has the previous track record of killing people bloodthirstily, they need to make some show of faith that entering into a peace deal with them wont just be as collosal a waste.

What you think of them is irrelevant since they probably think that Israel is worse, but they're still willing to negotiate.

Israel didnt negotiate with Hezbollah the whole point of the kidnapping of ISraeli soldiers was to some kind of negotiation with Israel to release Palestinian prisoners which ISrael refused!

I wasnt referring to last years war

 

[HotShot]

i dont know how credible israel is in the eyes of the world, but i would ask why you think they dont have credibility. what of their word have they gone back on?

but i definately agree taht something should be given to the palestinians, but i dont think it should be through HAMAS. i dont see any peace through them. i see the need for a, quote myself "govt. that will look after their peoples best interests, namely, peace." like you said yourself, "You claim Hamas, and other factions are not trustworthy and not credible- fair enough"

On the first point: Why do think that these resolutions have been placed on Israel?

And recent war against Hezbollah, received international condemnation not on the war itself, but Israel's military methods. Israel's inability to have peaceful solution after more than 50 odd years - have led to its lost credibilities +plus a host of other small factors.

On the Second point - At some point we must trust, otherwise society wouldnt work. We trust people that they will not abuse the system, of course a few do but the majority wont. Everything is built on trust otherwise democracy wouldnt work -you would need a dictatorship.

If you have self serve shop - you trust the customers that they will pay and go. The same thing applies here. YOu know that some customers are shitheads - but you still have to trust them to pay up -some do others dont.

Placing trust on someoneelse has its own effects and develops loyalty and they in turn will trust you over time.