Uni's Dumb Down for Foreign Cash (2 Viewers)

MoonlightSonata

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wikiwiki said:
The benefits a society reaps from intelligent and skilled workers far outweigh the costs.
In principle that is true, though in these circumstances I believe fee paying places are a maximum of 5 UAI points less, and are often less than that in difference. It's pretty silly to say someone is likely to be less intelligent than someone 3 UAI points higher than them. UAI and intelligence, though substantially related, would certainly not be necessarily correlated (and it would clearly be invalid to make such determinations on such a small margin).

I know some very smart people with UAIs in the mid 80s and some less intelligent but hard-working people with UAIs in the 95-99 range. One friend in particular would definitely be among the cream of the 99+ scorers, but only achieved around 85 or so.
 

Sarah

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ohne said:
What is wrong with attracting foreign students? In my opinion the problem with the University system at the moment is that there is too much governmen intervention.

It might shock the middle clases, but I would put things like higher education on a commercial footing. Universities should charge what they like in what is now a world market. If they continue to struggle under the yoke of penny-pinching politicians, they’ve had it. I would let them charge full fees but require them to set up endowment funds so the poorest students had equal access: choose on merit, help on need.
If you did that, there's a risk of less popular degrees and courses not being offered as they wouldn't be considered financially viable.
 

MoonlightSonata

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wikiwiki said:
If you read my earlier post, I disagree with this statement completely. ["UAI and intelligence substantially related"] UAI and intelligence are not substantially related. Intelligence is not equal to ability to succeed in the way it is current measured (IQ).
Very well then you contradict yourself - you imply that intelligence has something to do with UAI with your complaint about fee-paying students:

wikiwiki said:
The benefits a society reaps from intelligent and skilled workers far outweigh the costs.
If you disagree with UAI and intelligence being related, then you cannot hold to your statement about fee-paying somehow inhibiting the intelligence of the constituents of Australia's workforce.
 

Not-That-Bright

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Alot of full fee paying students do VERY WELL at uni..
Maybe we should kick out the slackers who made it in with 99.95 then started getting passes at uni?
 

MoonlightSonata

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wikiwiki said:
no im saying ability to succeed has nothing to do with wealth, and that UAI is the measure we use to measure the ability of someone to succeed. So full fee paying students are interfering in the process by distorting the education market. That doesnt mean UAI is anywhere near perfect, just that full fee paying is far worse at determining ability to succeed.

I mixed up intelligence in my early post with what I use it to denote : the ability to succeed.
Okay good, because intelligence and ability to succeed are two different things.

Now that we've clarified that, I still don't think you can say that fee-paying is interfering with this. As I said it is a maximum of 5 UAI points lower than normal. It is completely bogus to claim that allowing people to enter a course 3 points lower than normal is "far worse" at determining ability to succeed.

I would also say that "succeed" is a very vague term. What do you mean by succeed? Do you mean earn a lot of money, advance through to the upper echelons of the chosen career path, have a job they are happy with, contribute to the industry? It is an ambiguous notion. Given this, it can further be said that UAI does not substantially correlate to "success", whatever that may be (though I would suspect exponentially so from 90 and upwards). To illustrate with a very blunt example, it is very foreseeable that a garbage keeper could get a UAI of 50, or whatever one might need for a 'garbology' career path and become the best, most prestigious garbage keeper in the city. He might think himself successful, and maybe rightly so.
 

Plebeian

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The lack of funding for higher education (and universities in general, expanding to such fields as research) in Australia is symptomatic of a serious lack of vision on behalf of the Government, which appears more concerned with using its budgets to buy votes and produce surpluses than invest in policies that will contribute to the wellbeing of our society in future. The failure to index funding to CPI is one of the largest problems. As a nation, we cannot afford to prostitute the future of our most highly trained workers, and our intellectual capital in the form of researchers and teachers, to the vagaries of foreign funding sources; nor can we afford to lower our standards of teaching in order to accommodate foreign full-fee paying students, as it has been suggested occurs. It is in the best interest of Australia to spend more on domestic issues and (as always) less on defence; although much of our military hardware requires upgrading, we need to consider the current climate where a continued buildup of conventional military hardware is not necessarily that helpful for maintaining national security in the face of more effusive, decentralised threats.
 

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Education is not a right. You do not have a right to education. That it is subsidised for many is a (much abused) privilege.

A switch to a more user-pays system does not, in itself, constitute our universities "going to shit". Please provide some sort of detail about how Australian graduates are really bad compared to the rest of the world since the time-lag effect of the Howard government before making such a claim.

Also substantiate that anyone has a 'hatred of intellectuals'.

The same goes for the factual basis of any sort of normative claim that Australia is suffering or will suffer from greater education exports.

This thread is 90% assumptions and pre-mature conclusions.


Regarding international students, from the international students i know, most of them hang around each other because they are insecure about their spoken casual English ability (especially Asian internationals). Do a good deed and go talk to some:)
 

Not-That-Bright

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wikiwiki said:
Doesnt it? just like free market economics dont lead to monopolies?

What about people who cant afford it? just let them have no education?

people who cant afford food? tough luck, food isnt a right.

people who cant afford housing? yep. you guessed it, they can stay homeless.

people who cant afford medication? let them suffer.

Wow, this sounds like a capitalist version of social darwinism. Go have your afternoon tea with Hitler and stop pretending to be basing your argument on fact.
Free market economics doesn't lead to monopolies per se, but socialised economies are often leaning towards a government monopoly lol
 

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Rorix education is a right, it's in the International Covenant of Social, Cultural and Political Rights...I hope I got that right, because I know you're a sassy law dude. :rolleyes:
where's neo? he has an opinion on everything regarding asians.
 

Rorix

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wikiwiki said:
Doesnt it? just like free market economics dont lead to monopolies?
A switch to a user-pays system does not, in itself, result in something 'going to shit'. The two are not equated. You must actually prove that something is 'going to shit' before you can state that it is 'going to shit' and just because it is user-pays doesnt mean it is going to shit. OH NO WOOLIES IS GOING TO SHIT BECAUSE I HAVE TO PAY FOR MY GROCERIES.

What about people who cant afford it? just let them have no education?
Education is not a right [or, should i qualify, free university education is not a right]. So yes. I think you'll find there are quite generous schemes for those attending university, namely, HECS, to let people who can't afford it get a university education.

people who cant afford food? tough luck, food isnt a right.

people who cant afford housing? yep. you guessed it, they can stay homeless.

people who cant afford medication? let them suffer.
I don't even understand what your argument here is. You seem to be doing some reducto ad absurdum on 'education is not a right', but you fail to realise that my position is not 'what is not a right cannot be granted to people' but rather that a citizen cannot have their access to a right obstructed by government. Even if it was, your argument fails to acknowledge that there are degrees of food, degrees of housing and degrees of medication, just like there are degrees of education, but only one degree of education is being referred to here - namely, that of university education. But that is neither here nor there.

Surely it is not your position that I can go into the finest restraunt in town and demand a free meal when I can't afford it, or demand a mansion, or demand the best surgeon in the world performing my operation for free.

Wow, this sounds like a capitalist version of social darwinism.
:rolleyes: This was probably more of an ad sequiter than your mention of Hitler in the next sentence.

Go have your afternoon tea with Hitler and stop pretending to be basing your argument on fact.
I never did pretend my argument was based on fact, but rather simple logic that one can only say that A leads to B if A, in fact, leads to , and the rest of it was asking for clarification of a number of,...controversial statements in the thread that were not elaborated upon.


ps while I appreciate the thought gone into the example, it would be goodfor both of us ifyou stopped acting like the poster child for free education
 

Rorix

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cherryblossom said:
Rorix education is a right, it's in the International Covenant of Social, Cultural and Political Rights...I hope I got that right, because I know you're a sassy law dude. :rolleyes:
where's neo? he has an opinion on everything regarding asians.

See my post and stop flirting with me:mad:.
 

Scanorama

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Rorix said:
Education is not a right. You do not have a right to education. That it is subsidised for many is a (much abused) privilege.

A switch to a more user-pays system does not, in itself, constitute our universities "going to shit". Please provide some sort of detail about how Australian graduates are really bad compared to the rest of the world since the time-lag effect of the Howard government before making such a claim.

Also substantiate that anyone has a 'hatred of intellectuals'.

The same goes for the factual basis of any sort of normative claim that Australia is suffering or will suffer from greater education exports.

This thread is 90% assumptions and pre-mature conclusions.


Regarding international students, from the international students i know, most of them hang around each other because they are insecure about their spoken casual English ability (especially Asian internationals). Do a good deed and go talk to some:)
Education is a right, and everyone who has the ability should be able to attend universities for free. Education is a foundamental part of the nation. Without educated citizens, the country is no different from other third world countries.
 

Plebeian

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Rorix said:
Education is not a right. You do not have a right to education. That it is subsidised for many is a (much abused) privilege.
cherryblossom said:
Rorix education is a right, it's in the International Covenant of Social, Cultural and Political Rights.
The relevant section from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (Article 26, (1)) says:

"Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. ... higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit".

So while there is no compulsion for the Government to provide free higher education under the first part, we must consider whether higher education is equally accessible to all. The rise in full fee-paying places and resultant drop in HECS places is reducing the amount of places which are "equally accessible to all on the basis of merit" in favour of those which are accessible only to some, on the basis of wealth. Higher Education at a Crossroads made it possible to have up to 35% full fee-paying students enrolled in Australian universities. If this level continues to grow, the right of all Australians to education which is equally accessible on the basis of merit will disappear.

Additionally, much of this argument is not solely about whether the Government is breaching human rights obligations or whatever by not sufficiently funding higher education; it is rather about whether a lack of funding is in fact damaging Australia's prospects of moving with the world into the future, and whether better funding would simply be in the best interests of the nation.

rorix said:
A switch to a more user-pays system does not, in itself, constitute our universities "going to shit". Please provide some sort of detail about how Australian graduates are really bad compared to the rest of the world since the time-lag effect of the Howard government before making such a claim.
...

The same goes for the factual basis of any sort of normative claim that Australia is suffering or will suffer from greater education exports.
The title of this thread is taken from a Herald investigation into the declining teaching standards brought about as a result of the lack of Government funding for universities and the resultant need on the part of those universities to accommodate increased quantities of international full-fee paying students to provide them with revenue. While the majority of the "Campus Critical" investigation is only available in the weekend Herald's print version, you can view some pertinent articles online:

Unis dumb down for foreign cash ;
Rescued by foreign fees;
Too many doctors in the house;
In their words.

Some of the problems referred to, as a cause of both the rise in full-fee paying students and/or the general lack of funding from the Government include:
- declining marking standards, often reduced to accommodate foreign students with lower English standards;
- overcrowded tutorials and lectures;
-ongoing cuts to staff levels;
-ongoing cuts to degree programs which have lower levels of enrolment, or are less profitable.

The key problem with Nelson's "enterprise university" concept is that some things which are essential to the functioning of a nation are simply unprofitable and hence cannot be regarded as commodities which a private enterprise can provide.

Even if education is not a national right, it should be a national priority, and the current Government is clearly not treating it as one.
 

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MoonlightSonata said:
Okay good, because intelligence and ability to succeed are two different things.

Now that we've clarified that, I still don't think you can say that fee-paying is interfering with this. As I said it is a maximum of 5 UAI points lower than normal. It is completely bogus to claim that allowing people to enter a course 3 points lower than normal is "far worse" at determining ability to succeed.

I would also say that "succeed" is a very vague term. What do you mean by succeed? Do you mean earn a lot of money, advance through to the upper echelons of the chosen career path, have a job they are happy with, contribute to the industry? It is an ambiguous notion. Given this, it can further be said that UAI does not substantially correlate to "success", whatever that may be (though I would suspect exponentially so from 90 and upwards). To illustrate with a very blunt example, it is very foreseeable that a garbage keeper could get a UAI of 50, or whatever one might need for a 'garbology' career path and become the best, most prestigious garbage keeper in the city. He might think himself successful, and maybe rightly so.
I think you only need a Year 9 education to be a garbo.
Yes success is a flexible term that can be used for just about anything
 

leetom

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Korn said:
I think you only need a Year 9 education to be a garbo.
Yes success is a flexible term that can be used for just about anything
If you don't have something to add, don't post.

Nearly all of your posts are 'yer, I agree', or 'yer, he's right'.
 

Korn

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leetom said:
If you don't have something to add, don't post.

Nearly all of your posts are 'yer, I agree', or 'yer, he's right'.
I was correcting him on his assumption that garbo's need a UAI of 50.
Alot of ur posts dont say shit much like this one
 

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Korn said:
I was correcting him on his assumption that garbo's need a UAI of 50.
He wasn't making such an assumption, Korn.
 

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