UTS v UWS (3 Viewers)

[hYperTrOphY]

Ah, now I'm more unsure than I was before lol...

In the UAC Guide it says, as part of the Criminology description, This program is especially focused on understanding the formulation of crime policy, the operation of criminal justice and juvenile justice systems, and the role of government bodies and international agencies responsible for preventing, detecting and correcting crime.
It was descriptions such as these which led me to believe that the course would be appropriate whether I wanted to join such organisations such as AFP, find employment in policy development or be of assistance in the legal profession.

I wonder though, if it would be better to instead study Arts with law and do a major in policy studies or politics and international studies.

What is the difference between Arts and Social Science? All the Social Science majors appear in the Arts majors as well..

My main concern with Social Science (Criminology) at the moment is that it is going to be too specialised, and since I am not certain about what I will do after graduating, that is a worry.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

It was descriptions such as these which led me to believe that the course would be appropriate whether I wanted to join such organisations such as AFP, find employment in policy development or be of assistance in the legal profession.

I do believe strong marks in criminology would help you get in to the AFP.

 

[hYperTrOphY]

I do believe strong marks in criminology would help you get in to the AFP.

I agree. However, I am more likely to want to practice law. Joining some sort of criminal agency is just something else I may be interested in.

Edit: Therefore, the concern is that I won't be maximising the opportunity for a successful law career (by going to UWS) for the chance of maybe using the crim degree to join such an agency.
I don't know, I'm confused now.. :S

Edit again: Then I think that maybe good results, high involvement in extra-cirricula activities, my scholarship and UAI will negate the inferior level of prestige of the uni and allow me to enjoy the benefits of a course I will enjoy and the scholarship money...

 

[Not-That-Bright]

In that case I would pick UTS. Prestige definately does matter in Law, more so than any other degree you could possibly choose, and while I am sure that UWS graduates can (and do) get great jobs, the old stigma's still exist.

I would put your decision down to how much you want to do criminology (not that much it would seem) and how much that $10g a year is really worth to you.

I think if you put in the effort at uws you will have just as much of a chance as anyone else to land a nice job in law.

 

[LaraB]

Thanks for everyone's input - very much appreciated!!

Lara, with a 98+ UAI, why did you choose to study at UWS?
I applied for the UWS College of Law and Business Academic Excellence Scholarship and the Blacktown City Merit Equity Scholarship. Which two did you get?

because i know people doing law at just about every uni in nsw, + anu... and i like the make up of the course and the sounds of the lecturers and the lack of snobbery...

plus the places i want to work for don't give a shit what uni you go to if you're a good student... add to that that my business course only 'really' exists at uws....scholarships which certainly don't hurt...location...

but for the most part it was the course... its structure and content... and the fact that employers and the ex-DPP's assistant, a QC and a barrister at St James Hall more or less said unless i wanna go into the more political side of law, UWS is as good as any other uni for law.

i got the UWS Acad. Excellence one and Blacktown Council Acad, excellence one totally $50k woot

i didn't think the blacktown ones existed anymore? coz they weren't on the website...?

 

[Jonathan A]

It does have psychology and I'd assume similar arts subjects. More so than UTS which only offers journalism, media and social inq.

Never tell a criminologist they are simply psychologists. They hate it! And Criminology is very different from general Arts courses. Criminology is offered as ONE SUBJECT in law. Compare this to the various studies at UWS including:
-Forensics
-Crime Prevention
-Policing
-Violence
-Sociological Studies of Crime
-Psychological Studies of Crime

 

[§eraphim]

Maybe you should consider doing BA or BSocSci in Crimonology at UNSW/Usyd and then transfer into the combined LLB degree after 1st yr. Transferring seems to work for a lot of people as long as you do well in 1st yr (DN+ average)

 

[Jonathan A]

Why are you so keen on criminology?

I know at unsw the Criminal law courses are choc full of criminology already. I think after two sessions most people were tired of it. Anyways most law schools offer criminology electives in the later years if you are so inclined.




.

We pretty much have the same at UWS, perhaps more...

SS242A.1 Crime & Law
C1047.1 Crime and Society
C3320.1 Crime Prevention and Community Safety
C2069.1 Crime Theories
SS248A.1 Cyber Computer and Corporate Crime
400074.1 Drugs and Criminalisation
400678.1 Environmental Criminology and Public Policy
SC103A.1 Forensic Science
400679.1 Gender, Sexuality and the Law
400682.1 Interpersonal Violence
C3070.1 Intervention Strategies in Criminal Justice Practice
400684.1 Juvenile Crime and Justice
LW211A.1 Law and Society (V1)
400658.1 Policing in Australia
C3071.1 Programming in Correctional Environments
C2071.1 Psychological Aspects of Crime and Criminal Justice
400685.1 Punishment
C2070.1 Sentencing and Penalty
400683.1 Sociology of Peace, Violence and Sustainable Futures
400674.1 Sociology of Power and Deviance
63027.1 Statistical Knowledge and Social Power
C3075.1 Victims and Crime

You wont get tired of criminology. If you learn it with criminal law, perhaps. But criminology at UWS can be very practical.

Also, In my opinion, generalist degrees complement specific law degrees better. Be it BA/LLB, Com/LLB or Sci/LLB.

I doubt how a BA/LLB is better than a BSoSc/LLB? Please explain how you came to that conclusion.

University By-Laws mean that students need to select majors, one such major is criminology.

I think a specific degree and a law degree would send me a little bit bonkers due to the lack of variety of study. Especially if I got through my first year of the specific non law degree and felt I didn't like what I was studying very much

Let me inform you so you don't keep misrepresenting the University.

You need to complete General Social Science units which include research methods and philosophy. You also need to choose units from a pool of subjects of foundations and that includes psychology, employment relations, etc... With criminology you have spare units which allow you to choose ANY unit from any faculty of the university. SO it's not restricted at all! People should be aware UWS is very flexy with it's degrees to allow you to cater your degree to the way you want it.

 

[§eraphim]

in short, i don't know and cannot say for certain which uni marks 'hard' or 'soft'. i doubt it can be generalised in this way, as i think it varies from lecturer to lecturer.

The marks are not entirely up to the lecturers' discretion - they do have to follow guidelines. I think for FCE the average has to be close to a low credit average otherwise its scaled (I'm guessing anywhere in the range of 60-75). They generally don't need to scale the majority of FCE exams because the students do well enough to fall within that range (except for Actuarial subjects)

 

[Jonathan A]

It just means you are stuck with it even if you don't like it. And studying the same thing for 3 years can be tedious. Then again you might love criminology so much that you like doing it all the damn time.



How did Aronson mark the midsession? I wasn't in his class when I did Admin but I heard he failed a fair quite a few people in the midsession but then marked nicely in the end of session exam. In any event I cant really compare since you did the new Admin course with the decent text book.

Sorry to say, you are full of it! Crime is so expansive and is an industry unto itself. How can you say that it can be covered in one or two subjects as part of a law degree? Each unit I undertake, whilst applying similar understandings, we enter into new realms of research. The same goes with law. Our general principles can be picked up in first year and we apply tests such as But-for throughout the degree. Doesn't mean the course is tedious at all. It simply means you have a bias against UWS and a limited knowledge of it. So you make up information about the university and present it. I take great offence to it. I do criminology and I think it is intellectually stimulating and presents a challenge every time you read new research on your area.

As I have said before, behavioural science in criminology is a very good degree to have. Crime Prevention is the new thing and criminologists are increasingly needed.

 

[Jonathan A]

If you want to join ASIO, DFAT, ONA etc you need a degree in Politics and International relations.

Criminology will get you a job in the police force or something similar. It's focus is domestic.

Criminology will take you places! Perfect for ASIO and other departments. Domestic Crime is very important too.

You have gone further now erawamai, UWS was misrepresented to its fullest, so you now misrepresent ASIO. To join ASIO, you need to have a four-year degree. You can also join Customs - many of our grads do. And there is nothing wrong with joining the force. Stable job, great pay, and the need to be bright.

Some of the best Criminal Lawyers started out in the police force.

 

[hYperTrOphY]

Thanks for your input on the criminology course, Jonathan.
My primary interest/career path is to practice law; however, working for agencies such as AIC, ASIO, Fed Police etc is an alternate path which I may wish to explore. In fact, it is such an interest that the book I am reading is on criminology - "Base Instincts: What Makes Killers Kill". It is more medically/psychologically focused than sociologically, but neverthless reinforces my interest in this field.

I'm going to the UWS D-Day on Jan 3 - do you know if there will be any law graduates there to speak with?

 

[LaraB]

Thanks for your input on the criminology course, Jonathan.
My primary interest/career path is to practice law; however, working for agencies such as AIC, ASIO, Fed Police etc is an alternate path which I may wish to explore. In fact, it is such an interest that the book I am reading is on criminology - "Base Instincts: What Makes Killers Kill". It is more medically/psychologically focused than sociologically, but neverthless reinforces my interest in this field.

I'm going to the UWS D-Day on Jan 3 - do you know if there will be any law graduates there to speak with?

yeah there will be from the sounds of it and lecturers too - keep in mind - not all the lecturers are old fuddy duddys who don't know about the industry anymore - in fact ver very few are - a lot are quite young and still practising so make sure you ask them too.

if you're still unsure about what courses - even if its just a little thing or two - you definitely should go to UTS equivalent of D-Day - no idea when it is or anything, but you probablyhave info on it - because you may go to both unis and find that there are things you didn't know about each and you may end up wanting to go UTS after all

 

[erawamai]

Criminology will take you places! Perfect for ASIO and other departments. Domestic Crime is very important too.

That's true. I forgot to think of domestic issues. But of course it would depend on what area you work in within ASIO. A Criminology focused degree would prepare you to work within ASIO and the AFP in terms of domestic security.

I was more focused on the international side of ASIO other stuff like DFAT, ONA and the diplomatic service of which you would need some kind of degree or some kind of knowledge of international relations. From what I know ASIO, DFAT etc tend to take ANU politics grads especially if they have studied Asian politics (Jakarta Lobby relevance).

 

[erawamai]

You wont get tired of criminology.

I think thats a bit of a crazy assumption to make for everyone. Just as bad as me saying 'you will get tired of criminology'. Maybe you are bias towards criminology

Doesn't mean the course is tedious at all. It simply means you have a bias against UWS and a limited knowledge of it. So you make up information about the university and present it. I take great offence to it.

My comment shows no bias against UWS as a university. Rather my comments were concerned with the merits of studying three years of the same area. The comments were not specific to UWS and can be applied to any university in the world. The comment also did not seek (clearly) to represent anything at all. The comments were suggestions to aid discussion.

I made an assumption, you corrected that assumption. There is a large sparse distance between representing something to the best of your knowledge and representing something you know to be false. In any event much of what I said can be read as an opinion canvassed in aid of discussion. I also don't think its very sportsman like to accuse persons of bias because they said something that didn't gleamingly say uws is the best. In any event the comment did not suggest anything about the quality of UWS as a university negative or positive. The comment was concerned with the merits of studying three years of the same thing.

It just means you are stuck with it even if you don't like it. And studying the same thing for 3 years can be tedious. Then again you might love criminology so much that you like doing it all the damn time.

My comment also isn't really uws specific and does not criticise UWS as a university. It points out that 3 years of studying the same thing could be tedious if you locked into that kind of area of study. My comment also points out this may be wonderful for people who love criminology. This is a 'qualifying statement' which makes the statement more balanced. Clearly my issue was with the study and not the university. My comment could be applied to any criminology course in the world. I hope you are not drawing on minority mentality (it must be because I go to uws!!!)* something which I think you would hate.

It would also do you good to be able to identify the difference between suggestion and someone that holds themselves out to truthfully explain something.

It just means you are stuck with it even if you don't like it. And studying the same thing for 3 years can be tedious. Then again you might love criminology so much that you like doing it all the damn time.

Surely this is fair comment? I'm not sure how you can detect bias against UWS in that comment? I'm not sure how you can take great offence to that comment. It says nothing about UWSand is a general comment based on assumptions about having to study the same area for 3 years. It is obviously NOT uws specific (ie if I had said '3 years of criminology at uws would be shit but 3 years of Crim at usyd would be great' then you could accuse me of bias)

*Minority attitude. 'You are arresting me because I'm black!'. 'No we are arresting you because you broke the law',' It's cos I'm black!' If someone puts out an idea that in some tiny way negative of uws IT DOES NOT MEAN that he or she is bias against uws. In any event the comment was not about UWS! The only person who showed bias is you. You read a comment that was clearly not about UWS as a university, but about the merits of studying the same thing for three years, as being bias against UWS. It could even be applied to the criminology course at Harvard.

 

[Frigid]

yeah there will be from the sounds of it and lecturers too - keep in mind - not all the lecturers are old fuddy duddys who don't know about the industry anymore - in fact ver very few are - a lot are quite young and still practising so make sure you ask them too.

if you're still unsure about what courses - even if its just a little thing or two - you definitely should go to UTS equivalent of D-Day - no idea when it is or anything, but you probablyhave info on it - because you may go to both unis and find that there are things you didn't know about each and you may end up wanting to go UTS after all

yeah but so are our david brownhttp://www.law.unsw.edu.au/staff/BrownD/, sandra egger and alex steelhttp://www.law.unsw.edu.au/staff/SteelA/ (ok, maybe not sandra, she's a bit of a fuddy duddy).

anyway, info on UTS Advisory Day is herehttp://www.advisoryday.uts.edu.au/.

i would do more crim except i like the substantive rather than the social/theoretical study of it, so criminology is not for me.

 

[erawamai]

yeah but so are our david brownhttp://www.law.unsw.edu.au/staff/BrownD/, sandra egger and alex steelhttp://www.law.unsw.edu.au/staff/SteelA/ (ok, maybe not sandra, she's a bit of a fuddy duddy).

anyway, info on UTS Advisory Day is herehttp://www.advisoryday.uts.edu.au/.

i would do more crim except i like the substantive rather than the social/theoretical study of it, so criminology is not for me.

Alex Steel

 

[Jonathan A]

I think thats a bit of a crazy assumption to make for everyone. Just as bad as me saying 'you will get tired of criminology'. Maybe you are bias towards criminology


My comment shows no bias against UWS as a university. Rather my comments were concerned with the merits of studying three years of the same area. The comments were not specific to UWS and can be applied to any university in the world. The comment also did not seek (clearly) to represent anything at all. The comments were suggestions to aid discussion.

I made an assumption, you corrected that assumption. There is a large sparse distance between representing something to the best of your knowledge and representing something you know to be false. In any event much of what I said can be read as an opinion canvassed in aid of discussion. I also don't think its very sportsman like to accuse persons of bias because they said something that didn't gleamingly say uws is the best. In any event the comment did not suggest anything about the quality of UWS as a university negative or positive. The comment was concerned with the merits of studying three years of the same thing.


My comment also isn't really uws specific and does not criticise UWS as a university. It points out that 3 years of studying the same thing could be tedious if you locked into that kind of area of study. My comment also points out this may be wonderful for people who love criminology. This is a 'qualifying statement' which makes the statement more balanced. Clearly my issue was with the study and not the university. My comment could be applied to any criminology course in the world. I hope you are not drawing on minority mentality (it must be because I go to uws!!!)* something which I think you would hate.

It would also do you good to be able to identify the difference between suggestion and someone that holds themselves out to truthfully explain something.


Surely this is fair comment? I'm not sure how you can detect bias against UWS in that comment? I'm not sure how you can take great offence to that comment. It says nothing about UWSand is a general comment based on assumptions about having to study the same area for 3 years. It is obviously NOT uws specific (ie if I had said '3 years of criminology at uws would be shit but 3 years of Crim at usyd would be great' then you could accuse me of bias)

*Minority attitude. 'You are arresting me because I'm black!'. 'No we are arresting you because you broke the law',' It's cos I'm black!' If someone puts out an idea that in some tiny way negative of uws IT DOES NOT MEAN that he or she is bias against uws. In any event the comment was not about UWS! The only person who showed bias is you. You read a comment that was clearly not about UWS as a university, but about the merits of studying the same thing for three years, as being bias against UWS. It could even be applied to the criminology course at Harvard.

You would make a wonderful lawyer is the adversary was not represented. What you did is remove all the comments you made which incriminate you and show one or two comments about how criminology is good. Quite smart I have to say.

You peppered in our discussion negativities of the University and to add to it, you made certain assertions about the progression rules of the university. To the persons seeking information, it misleads them. You cannot tell me otherwise.

------

TO hypertrophy:

With most degrees, you are going to need to do a major. Criminology is one major out of the many. Arts has history, politics, english, text and writing, etc... With science you might have chemistry, biology, forensics, etc... With Commerce/Business it might be HR, Accounting, etc...

Do not listen to people who say that being specific is bad or not a smart option. TO enter professions, you need to have a good grasp of a particular area. The jack of all trades in "Arts" or "Commerce" is not going to cut it I would say. Its important to be wide, but you must also go deep.

I have been told that UWS has many advantages over UTS, and vica versa. At the end of the day if UWS is what suits you, then go with it. Negative reputations imposed by those living in some dreamland of the elite shouldn't be listened to. A great deal of employers do not care about where you came from at all. If you walked out of USyd with Passes and fails and a miserable academic record, I guarantee you University's reputation isn't going to save you. At the end of the day, its YOU that needs to make the impression. People who hide behind their university's reputation, probably aren't progressing very well (could be wrong) or are so far up themselves, they will make horrible advocates.

I will be fair with UWS, it's young, it's still growing and it has it's far share of problems. No uni is perfect. So far, I am extremely happy with the university and don't see it to be hinderence to my career. Have faith in yourself.

 

[erawamai]

You would make a wonderful lawyer is the adversary was not represented. What you did is remove all the comments you made which incriminate you and show one or two comments about how criminology is good. Quite smart I have to say.

Well It wouldn't be very smart if I'd actually said the things which you say make me out to be a bias wanker. I still don't think any of my comments were totally unfair or bias. Again my comments were not university specific and I probably would have asked the same question of someone who wanted to do a Criminology degree at unsw. I still can't help but think you suffer from some kind of constant victim/minority mentality...in that the reason anyone says anything that could be construed asnegative in relation to anything that may have a tiny bit to do with is because you go to uws. Anyone who does so is first to be labled bias!!!!!!!

You peppered in our discussion negativities of the University and to add to it, you made certain assertions about the progression rules of the university. To the persons seeking information, it misleads them. You cannot tell me otherwise.

- I didn't make made unfair assertions about uws. I made assumptions about the UWS progession rules which you corrected. AGAIN there is a large sparse space between between knowingly misrepresenting and representing to the best of of your knowledge.

- I'd still like you to find places where I commented on how terrible UWS is as a university.

- I didn't go into this thread for a uws bash. People in this forum do it for fun and wait for uws people to respond to irrational trolling irrationally for the sake of entertainment. My main concern is that I think sometimes (to remind you this is my subjective opinion) y r12 kiddies get all caught up in defining life for themselves before they have experienced any of university life and what it can offer - in terms of areas of study. I personally don't like it when some yr 12s get so damn set on something when they havn't experienced it. The advice I've been given by other lawyers (and yes people have different opinions) is to not limit yourself and decide to be a criminal barrister in the first year of university. Keep your opinions open and decide later on in your degree with you have had a taste of more of the law subjects.

Do not listen to people who say that being specific is bad or not a smart option. TO enter professions, you need to have a good grasp of a particular area. The jack of all trades in "Arts" or "Commerce" is not going to cut it I would say. Its important to be wide, but you must also go deep.

Both Commerce and Arts require the selection of a major sequence of study. Just like your B Social Science.

At the end of the day if UWS is what suits you, then go with it. Negative reputations imposed by those living in some dreamland of the elite shouldn't be listened to. A great deal of employers do not care about where you came from at all. If you walked out of USyd with Passes and fails and a miserable academic record, I guarantee you University's reputation isn't going to save you. At the end of the day, its YOU that needs to make the impression. People who hide behind their university's reputation, probably aren't progressing very well (could be wrong) or are so far up themselves, they will make horrible advocates.

I don't think anyone disputes a bit of common sense.

I will be fair with UWS, it's young, it's still growing and it has it's far share of problems. No uni is perfect.

Horray!

 

[melsc]

I probably would have asked the same question of someone who wanted to do a Criminology degree at unsw.

Is the Criminology degree at UNSW more specialised? I remember looking it up and instead it being a major in the Soc Sci Degree its its own degree?