Vactioner Programs (1 Viewer)

[UWS-Uni-Student]

Has anyone here done vactioner programs for accounting? What did you think of it and what happens if you get multiple offers (how possible is this?) Also could you explain what is realy involved in the different service lines and if there is any pay to offset expenses incurred in attending the programs.

 

[mr_shittles]

Has anyone here done vactioner programs for accounting? What did you think of it and what happens if you get multiple offers (how possible is this?) Also could you explain what is realy involved in the different service lines and if there is any pay to offset expenses incurred in attending the programs.

I've done Summer Vacation at a small firm and winter vacation at a Big 4. I did them in differnet service lines: superannuation and audit for the two firms respectively.

I found the experience very useful in more than just learning about the work they do, but learning about the business environment and how a coporate workplace functioned (my first job was at the small firm and I'd never worked in corporate before). Accounting firms also invest in traing, more so than other corporates (however, now corporates are catching up).

In Big 4, the biggest service lines are Audit and Tax Services.

The audit function is the one that provides assurance to a company that its financial statements are presented in a true and fair manner. As a vacationer, you typically get very basic work like entering a trial balance into a spreadhseet and ensuring that there is supporting documentation for the amounts in each category. You might do a bit of testing of cash balances (making sure that the amount in that account is correct by verifying the major transactions).

Tax services does advisory and compliance work. Advisory stuff is planning of tax strategies to minimise (legally) the total tax paid by the business/individuals, compliance is filling out tax returns and other forms and documentation as required by the tax office. I wouldn't know exactly what a vacationer in tax does on a day-to-day basis (haven't done that).

I didn't fully understand what you meant by "if there is any pay to offset expenses incurred in attending the programs" . . . I know Tax gets a pay premium to audit, driven by supply and demand (apparently at the same pay, people would be more inclined to pick audit) and potentially the more knowledge intensive nature of tax.

 

[Conspirocy]

I was a summer vacationer at a Big 4 firm over the holidays.

I think you really can’t tell whether accounting work will suit you until you give it a go.

Personally, I didn’t enjoy my period there. The work was great, the experience was great, the systems and procedures were great. It’s always good fun having economies of scale. The rigidity of a large structure at times can be annoying as well. Most of the vacationers I met didn’t get to do that much, I was actually lucky and was given some great work.

If you get through their selection process, all else equal (i.e. you don’t do something stupid) you will get a job offer at the end of it. I don't think that reflects well on the vacation program. I guess the tough part is getting in.

As for all the ‘razzle and dazzle’ about training and development, I didn’t find that to be true at all. As for ‘different cultures’ I find that to be nonsense, how different can you be when you do the same work – all the Big 4 firms are essentially the same but have a different spin on how they sell themselves to you.

Grads should realise they are worth more than what they are receiving in the marketplace at the moment.

As for the opportunities that people talk about, I couldn’t see it. There are clear structures of advancement in Big 4 accounting firms and in my personal view they are developed to stop people progression too quickly even if they have the potential. I guess that’s why people leave after getting their CA.

If you want to know about particular service lines then look them up, the firms have pages of information about what each department does. If you read them all you will figure out what is done where.

As for costs of anything, don’t push it would be my initial advice, although I haven’t the faintest idea what sort of expenses you are referring to.

Go to a bank instead would be my advice, at least you get a rotation as a graduate.

 

[Newbie]

vacationer experience is always good
even if you have a bad time and realise accounting isnt for you.

i was in tax at 2 big 4's so i have a rough idea about the program


in a typical day as a vacationer, I may start by sitting in on a conference call with a partner to the bankers and lawyers regarding a transaction in the pipeline and jot down some point that i have to research later on. After that i might help out with a tax return for a senior consultant using the firm's tax software. For lunch the senior manager drags me off to a client to discuss their plans for a business expansion and how we can add value to that. Afterwards i might go downstairs for some tax training before coming back up to call the ATO regarding an issue from the tax return in the morning, I end the day by checking my emails and forwarding some funny pictures around the office.*

* actual experience may differ and may include periods of doing nothing, photocopying, scanning, removing staples, going on youtube, hiding in the kitchen and using emailing your mates (i averaged about 200 emails a day)

 

[UWS-Uni-Student]

I didn't fully understand what you meant by "if there is any pay to offset expenses incurred in attending the programs" . . . I know Tax gets a pay premium to audit, driven by supply and demand (apparently at the same pay, people would be more inclined to pick audit) and potentially the more knowledge intensive nature of tax.

What I mean is if they pay you any money as a vacationer (even if its just a pittance to offset any expenses you would incur, so that you are basically breaking even)

 

[UWS-Uni-Student]

If you get through their selection process, all else equal (i.e. you don’t do something stupid) you will get a job offer at the end of it. I don't think that reflects well on the vacation program. I guess the tough part is getting in.

So I have heard.

As for all the ‘razzle and dazzle’ about training and development, I didn’t find that to be true at all. As for ‘different cultures’ I find that to be nonsense, how different can you be when you do the same work – all the Big 4 firms are essentially the same but have a different spin on how they sell themselves to you.

Well, wouldn't graduates and vactioners have different experiences?

Grads should realise they are worth more than what they are receiving in the marketplace at the moment.

Thats not exactly here or there in relation to vactioners programs, but its good to hear an opinion on this, so what do you think the market should be offering graduates?

If you want to know about particular service lines then look them up, the firms have pages of information about what each department does. If you read them all you will figure out what is done where.

Thats a good start, but was wondering if the reality matches the PR.

As for costs of anything, don’t push it would be my initial advice, although I haven’t the faintest idea what sort of expenses you are referring to.

Wasn't planning on asking them about any payment, thus why I am asking past vac'ies on what occurs.

Go to a bank instead would be my advice, at least you get a rotation as a graduate.

Thanks

 

[Conspirocy]

Re salary...if you go through such a tough selection process, and you come from a good uni, and you worked hard to get that D average then you should be paid more than the mean. Especially at the bigger firms. However, in practice the opposite occurs. If there really is a shortage of accountants how most starting grads should be getting paid the mean salary which is around 42-46 k. Honestly, if government can affort salaries in the 50s I think the Big 4 could make that leap. That's assuming they really do look at you as an investment that has a return, as opposed to someone who does the really menial and repetative tasks i.e. a shitkicker. What they offer reflects what they think of you, not very much. Again, this is my own personal opinion.

Yes the PR is pretty true, they are Big 4 accounting firms because you do get to work on big clients. That's the main benefit of working at such a firm.

Yes graduates and vacationers would be different. My period was initially meant to be December to Jan. They needed extra man power, and I guess I was alright at what I was doing so I ended up staying until March. Then I decided to leave to focus on my uni. Also, I didn't get into the whole vacationer thing since I was the only vaccie in my section, for me it was pretty much work work work.

I'm kind of guessing that you are referring to travel costs for the interview maybe? My friend had his parking in the city paid. If you want a pay scale, depends where you work, which firm, etc etc.

I'm not bagging accounting, I just didn't like where I was at for personal reasons.

 

[UWS-Uni-Student]

Re salary...if you go through such a tough selection process, and you come from a good uni, and you worked hard to get that D average then you should be paid more than the mean. Especially at the bigger firms. However, in practice the opposite occurs. If there really is a shortage of accountants how most starting grads should be getting paid the mean salary which is around 42-46 k. Honestly, if government can affort salaries in the 50s I think the Big 4 could make that leap. That's assuming they really do look at you as an investment that has a return, as opposed to someone who does the really menial and repetative tasks i.e. a shitkicker. What they offer reflects what they think of you, not very much. Again, this is my own personal opinion.

Yes I was referring to vacationer program pay, not graduate position pay, which the $ 44k p.a. refers to the latter.

In reference to the selection criteria, what would you say is the average GPA they accept (generally the minimum is credit average, and one assumes that the higher the GPA the better, however the extra-curricular, people skills and work experience would play a part in the selection criteria)

Yes the PR is pretty true, they are Big 4 accounting firms because you do get to work on big clients. That's the main benefit of working at such a firm.

I was meaning the actual work a vacationer would do with in the different service lines, not what the actual service line does.

Yes graduates and vacationers would be different. My period was initially meant to be December to Jan. They needed extra man power, and I guess I was alright at what I was doing so I ended up staying until March. Then I decided to leave to focus on my uni. Also, I didn't get into the whole vacationer thing since I was the only vaccie in my section, for me it was pretty much work work work.

Isn't that the reason you do a vactioner program? To work like they work, albiet on less important jobs that don't require a trained graduate.

I'm kind of guessing that you are referring to travel costs for the interview maybe? My friend had his parking in the city paid. If you want a pay scale, depends where you work, which firm, etc etc.

Well in a way, yes, travel costs to the interview as a small part of what I was referring to, but more so the travel costs when successful at gaining a place as a vaccie.

 

[Conspirocy]

I was meaning the actual work a vacationer would do with in the different service lines, not what the actual service line does.

Isn't that the reason you do a vactioner program? To work like they work, albiet on less important jobs that don't require a trained graduate.

No, the point of a vacation program is not to get the vaccie to work on less important jobs. If you go in as a vaccie and have any ability, you will be taken of that work.

A 'trained graduate'? What exactly do you think that means? A trained graduate at a Big 4 firm, knows how to use their systems and procedures, how to fill in their time sheets, how to deal with the independance policy, and the firms marketing etc. The firm is not adding value to you that you can take with you. They teach you how to operate in their business model, if you ever left a lot of your training is irrelevant. Not to say that some of it isn't. You will however pick up bits and pieces working in your particular area - is that really training?

Any self respecting person would not go into the details of their work on a public forum. You ask an open ended question, and then you criticise when you don't get an answer that you want to hear.

Again, you can infer the type of work you would be doing from what is on their websites. Just like you can infer a company's financial position from its financial statements. Do they teach you that at UWS? Come back to me when you can do the journal entries for consolidation. Oh wait, they don't teach you that either.

Clearly you need to calm down. You go to UWS, your course is sub standard in accounting. Just learn how to use a photocoppier and you should be fine.

Actually, I'm being unfair about UWS. There was one peson from UWS at the firm I worked at, they were actually pretty good.

 

[UWS-Uni-Student]

No, the point of a vacation program is not to get the vaccie to work on less important jobs. If you go in as a vaccie and have any ability, you will be taken of that work.

Okay, thank you for clarifying this matter for me.

A 'trained graduate'? What exactly do you think that means? A trained graduate at a Big 4 firm, knows how to use their systems and procedures, how to fill in their time sheets, how to deal with the independance policy, and the firms marketing etc. The firm is not adding value to you that you can take with you. They teach you how to operate in their business model, if you ever left a lot of your training is irrelevant. Not to say that some of it isn't. You will however pick up bits and pieces working in your particular area - is that really training?

I was meaning a graduate has a degree, whereas a vaccie generally doesn't and therefore, it would naturally be assumed that the graduate is more qualified.

Any self respecting person would not go into the details of their work on a public forum. You ask an open ended question, and then you criticise when you don't get an answer that you want to hear.

Sorry if I didn't phrase something properly, and you got the wrong message, I wasn't attempting to criticise anything, just get some clarification.

Again, you can infer the type of work you would be doing from what is on their websites. Just like you can infer a company's financial position from its financial statements. Do they teach you that at UWS?

Yes, but they also teach that what reality doesn't always meet the expectations or what one claims, thus the line of inquiry as to the accuracy of the descriptions. Furthermore, as the same work may not occur throughout the whole year, all that a job/service line entails may not be what is experienced by a vacationer.

Come back to me when you can do the journal entries for consolidation. Oh wait, they don't teach you that either.

They actually do teach this, basically all undergraduate degrees for Accounting are the same, regardless of university because they have to meet the requirements of the professional bodies.

 

[Conspirocy]

You're right, I probably took it the wrong way.

Clearly, in a 8-10 week period you wont see all there is to see in a service line. In a 2 year period you might not get a complete picture of your service line. You might work on a couple of engagements’ in detail. Or you could work on odd bits and pieces. Generally, at the time of the year when you are hired, there is not that much work to do, so you really have to scrap for it. Most of the time you are getting work from grads - why would they give you anything remotely good to do, when they haven't had that much experience yet and want to do the interesting work.

What will happen is this. You will go in there keen to do something productive. You will then be given the most unproductive work, which usually some support staff would do, or that wouldn't be done. You will then have a choice, try and do a good job of it (i.e. don't get bogged down by that crap) and network your way to some good work; or do what most vacationers do and go to all the social events, send around 200 emails a day, and pick up your pay cheque at the end of the week.

You will realise that you are at the bottom of the accounting food chain. You will also learn that offices are filled with unproductive and unnecessary politics that people will try to drag you into. Steer clear of the people who try to involve you in this. Who are we kidding, you cannot avoid the politics, and it shows how unprofessional people are when they try to coerce a vacationer to join their power plays.

You will come to the realisation that if you are to do possibly some of the most mundane work that you should at least get paid well for it. You will know you're not getting paid well for it.

You will then be given an offer that is designed to trap you. Its aim is to secure you into a job so that you do not look at what else is out there. You should look at what other jobs there are. I would go to an accounting firm last, even a Big 4 one.

Oh and on another note, most ridiculous thing I have ever seen is a vacationer having a "restraint of trade" clause for when they leave in their contract. Even worse is that they have to sign the restraint of trade clause on three different papers, and then twice when they leave.

 

[mr_shittles]

What I mean is if they pay you any money as a vacationer (even if its just a pittance to offset any expenses you would incur, so that you are basically breaking even)

Yeah, all Big4s and mid-tiers pay their vacationers for vaccie work. Typically its about $22/hr or $500-$600 per week, but varies firm to firm. And also, pay may have risen since I last did accounting vac work.

 

[UWS-Uni-Student]

Yeah, all Big4s and mid-tiers pay their vacationers for vaccie work. Typically its about $22/hr or $500-$600 per week, but varies firm to firm. And also, pay may have risen since I last did accounting vac work.

seems pretty good. Thanks

 

[turtleface]

Last vac period:

E&Y; Deloitte: $26/hr
KPMG: $24.50/hr
PWC: $22.xx/hr


9% compulsory super inclusive.

Down in Melb KPMG it was $25 excluding super ($27.50) per hour. Sucks to be in Syd but then again our grad offer was lower than the effective vac rate lol

 

[Conspirocy]

Conspirocy seems pretty bitter.

Bitter...who me? lol

Nah honestly all I personally found was that the whole Big 4 accounting firm was a let down after all the talking up about it.

I guess I expected more. It wasn't there. I don't think IB would be any different. However it is true I probably went into the wrong section, really would have prefered a more traditional accounting area where I got to do journal entries.

 

[seremify007]

A 'trained graduate'? What exactly do you think that means? A trained graduate at a Big 4 firm, knows how to use their systems and procedures, how to fill in their time sheets, how to deal with the independance policy, and the firms marketing etc. The firm is not adding value to you that you can take with you. They teach you how to operate in their business model, if you ever left a lot of your training is irrelevant. Not to say that some of it isn't. You will however pick up bits and pieces working in your particular area - is that really training?

I don't know where you were working but we have to do training both in accounting/technical skill (eg. I just finished my AIFRS training today) and non-accounting areas (I also finished training on how to use Pivottables in Excel a couple of weeks ago)- but then, maybe these programs are not really available to vacation students considering they take both time and financial investment; something which might not really be necessary for someone who is only going to be there for 6 weeks.

I'm not sure if this is what you were referring to but in my opinion, it doesn't hurt to be more aware or skilled in these areas. Like you mentioned, they do teach you how to use the systems and so on- but that's more of an "induction" kindof training where you need to learn the basics of what needs to be done on a daily basis rather than any technical skills. As this thread is about vacationers, it should be noted that for most vacationer programs to my knowledge, the students will NOT be undertaking the full fledged technical training (eg. Audit methodology)- that is reserved for when people join the firm full-time.

 

[seremify007]

What I mean is if they pay you any money as a vacationer (even if its just a pittance to offset any expenses you would incur, so that you are basically breaking even)

By the way with regards to your queries, under normal circumstances, I do not believe the firm will reimburse you for expenses incurred in travelling to/from job interviews or in your daily routine to reach the office. However, some firms may reimburse travel costs which are in beyond what your normal expenses for routine travel are, such as taxi fares to reach audit clients.

 

[Conspirocy]

I don't know where you were working but we have to do training both in accounting/technical skill (eg. I just finished my AIFRS training today) and non-accounting areas (I also finished training on how to use Pivottables in Excel a couple of weeks ago)- but then, maybe these programs are not really available to vacation students considering they take both time and financial investment; something which might not really be necessary for someone who is only going to be there for 6 weeks.

I'm not sure if this is what you were referring to but in my opinion, it doesn't hurt to be more aware or skilled in these areas. Like you mentioned, they do teach you how to use the systems and so on- but that's more of an "induction" kindof training where you need to learn the basics of what needs to be done on a daily basis rather than any technical skills. As this thread is about vacationers, it should be noted that for most vacationer programs to my knowledge, the students will NOT be undertaking the full fledged technical training (eg. Audit methodology)- that is reserved for when people join the firm full-time.

Not to get into a whole examination of what accounting firms offer compared to what they deliver, I will only say the following:

1) my post stated I started on a vacation program, I then was offered more work. I was working for 4 months nearly 5.
2) yes I did all that training, as well as some other areas
3) I'm sure what you said is true for Auidit, However, I did not work in Audit (really dont want to say where I worked cause it would give away where I worked, who I am and maybe I end up going back there end of this year etc etc).

Overall
1) Every department will be different
2) Every firm will be different
3) Every individual will be managed differently

So to draw comparissons between your experiance and my experiance is superficial and also has some bias built into it. Bias because you are not a vacationer and started as a cadet and so your introduction to such a work environment is different from my own. Your view may be true for a cadet but I would suggest that it may not accurately reflect the situation a vacationer, part timer or a grad has to deal with. I guess my points of view have bias built into them from my experiance. I don't claim that I'm right, I just ask some questions about the policies at some firms. If people consider them it doesn't hurt them. If they don't it wont hurt them either.

now i really must go study for my midsession...

 

[seremify007]

I agree with your post that my experiences may not necessarily be indicative of the true vaccie experience, and then similarly, yours may not be typical of what one should expect. The point about training/development at firms which I made was more aimed at emphasising the long-term benefits of Big4 because realistically, you will be involved more in practical hands-on experience as a vacation student, rather than the much longer/more comprehensive technical training which grads/undergrads will be equipped with.

 

[lilkiwicutie89]

I agree with your post that my experiences may not necessarily be indicative of the true vaccie experience, and then similarly, yours may not be typical of what one should expect. The point about training/development at firms which I made was more aimed at emphasising the long-term benefits of Big4 because realistically, you will be involved more in practical hands-on experience as a vacation student, rather than the much longer/more comprehensive technical training which grads/undergrads will be equipped with.

OMG u guys get paid sooooo much .. OMG ... im so underpaid and overworked ><

sighsssssssssssss