VSU petition (2 Viewers)

[LaraB]

Some small group decides what is important and what is not: they analyse the data and form policy.

By the way: weren't you saying that the majority didn't always know what is best..

Unless you are somehow suggesting that the entire populace runs the student union (is that the smell of communism...?)

as i said before... i'll repeat it again.....

majority doesn't always know what is right but that doesn't necessarily mean individuals do and vice versa.

in cases like this individual benefit cannot be stated to unequivocally validate a policy since the greater populace will be impacted by it and individuals actions impact upon each other

duh obviously a small gropu analyses the data, but if 100% of people say they thinkk we should have ... i dunno.. a union funded footy team, then they'll do it and likewise is 100% say we should get rid of funding for the queer association they would

obviously data is interpreted but i'ts much more likely to achieve a beneficial response if a group are interpreting responses from veryone than if everyone just does what they want.... yes data may be interpreted but if questions are asked clearly such as "do you want service x" then they can't interpret it to suit themselves because the intention is clear.

similarly, if they find that say, the pass rate of students falls due to i du nno... a lack of union representation in serious matters with uni admin, this statistical finding will lead to a conclusion that that particular aspect of the policy is not beneficial for the greater populace as although not everyone is failing, if 75% for example are failing, the negative rep etc will impact on the others so it's bad for everyone.

 

[GTR]

Did i also mention the student union abusing our funds, paying for some Arab terrorist to give a talk at Bankstown campus? This is not to mention the frequent shit stirring these leftist fucks cause, using our fees to organise pickets, hiring buses to go into the CBD to protest. All these pieces of shit do is whinge, and they hardly produce results.

It really is amazing where all our student union fees go.

Those fuckers that argue that VSU is going to be detrimental to poor students are absolute fools. We live in a free world. Nobody has forced these poor students to enrol into university. If you can't afford to support yourself through university, then don't enrol into university. Fuckoff with your whinging and stop burdening the rest of us.

 

[LaraB]

People have the right to not join a student union. If they don't believe student unions will help them, they won't join.

If they are wrong, and suffer, then they must accept the consequences.

You do realise that you are implying that you know what is right for others.

Voluntary Student Unionism isn't a 'win' for the Liberal Party. All it means is that the people that don't want to won't be forced to join a student union.

If student unions suffer it is because people have judged them irrelevant.

Your response is that people impact on others. So what? Other people impact on me... that is the price I pay for living in a society. If a society no longer benefits you, leave.

i am not saying i know what is right for others - i am simply saying that the assertions you and others have raised and the definitive statements, eg in your words 'this is the only definition of 'best' - are not a solution/good explanation. i am not saying i know what is irght. I proposed better methods to determine a greater good - unliek your assertions that xyz is what is best

just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they think they're 100% right... unlike you i am saying that one person can't provide the solution which is why i proposed methods to achieve the solution rather than providing definitive solutions which are almost irrelevant as you don't have the expertise to back it up in a lot of ways

you don't seem to understand how society works then if you think its as simple as ah well, you deal with the consequences. The problem is as i already said over and over that you are not the only one suffering the consequences, it is ultimately the populace as a whole who are affected. As most people are ignorant as to the operations of unions and as someone else raised, those who don't know simply agree with VSU as disagreeing takes more effort, it is not as simple as choice.

if student unions suffer it is not because they are deemed irrelevant - it is much more likely to be because those that need the services won't be able to affrord them and those that don't will make even greater efforts to avoid use of the services so as not to support the 'evil unions' despite the fact that they are doing themseles little to no harm in using the facilities etc

VSU is not as simple as those who don't want to join unions no longer will be forced to, so if that's your definition of the whole debate it's a waste of time since it is no where near that simple.. that's just as naive and wrong as saying IR reforms are just about increasing choice.

didn't realise that VSU was the be all and end of all of my existence... i'm not a complet moron as you imply.. just because i think VSU and manyo ther government policies are load of shit doens't mean i want to leave the society... if that's your idea of a solution, more than half the population of australia would vanish and you'd be left with only elitests and white collar workers with no one left to do all your dirty work

But when i find that magical mystical fictional place you refer to where society doens't exist that you can go to if you don't wanna be part of society i'll send you a postcard for future reference for those mayeb less aware who, shock horror, don't believe it exists

 

[LaraB]

Did i also mention the student union abusing our funds, paying for some Arab terrorist to give a talk at Bankstown campus?

ok since you'r being so assertive about this - can you show me the proof that he is a terrorist and the proof that the lecture was a waste of time?

most the students tehre were not supporting terrorism but attending to aid in their understanding of their course etc, particularly law and sociology and psychology students.. but of course extending your studies and knowledge is a total waste of time

We live in a free world. Nobody has forced these poor students to enrol into university. If you can't afford to support yourself through university, then don't enrol into university. Fuckoff with your whinging and stop burdening the rest of us.

what a great argument - we live in a free world so lets promote removing freedom of opportunity and lets promote increasing class distinction and lets promote inability to gain employment and the perpetuation of lowsocio-economic circumstance.....

you cannot say that we live in a free world and then talk about removing opportunity for others....

have you not noticed the enormous quantity of students on HECS? following your logic they should all be banned from attending uni... i'm sure you'll love that logic when you need a doctor or a lawyer or politicians and all you get are molly-coddled rich kids who wouldn't know reality if it bit them in the ass because 'poor people' shouldn't be allowed to go to uni unless they cough up the funds when asked....

 

[GTR]

I proposed better methods to determine a greater good

That in itself is a contradiction to your own statements. What makes you think that your methods are necessarily "better"?

it is ultimately the populace as a whole who are affected

Speak for yourself...
These leftist pricks never stop complaining about university administration. They always seem to have criticisms, throwing them around like fucking candy bars, trying to make it appealing to the lowest common denominator. For all i care, when student unions are abolished, the whole populace will be affected, and it will be for the better.

if student unions suffer it is not because they are deemed irrelevant - it is much more likely to be because those that need the services won't be able to affrord them

Why is it that an honest, hard working individual like me have to pay union fees to cater for those peasants that cannot support themselves? If you can't afford to undertake something, then avoid it. The fact that you advocate the victimisation of other students for the sake of peasants is appalling.

if that's your idea of a solution, more than half the population of australia would vanish and you'd be left with only elitests and white collar workers with no one left to do all your dirty work

You are wrong. There will always be the underdogs who will have no choice but to do the dirty work for the successful elite. If VSU is going to affect the university like you have submitted, then there will be even more peasants.

 

[erawamai]

I really don't care much about the vsu thing much anymore. The increasing neo liberal bent of the youth of today will ensure that they either sink badly or swim well. If they don't swim I don't think it would be reasonable for the state or any form of collectivism to put out their hand for you.

Unless you are the top of your game and know you will be in the upper cohorts or everything in life then neo liberalism will benefit you. If you are not at the top of your cohort in everything you do increasing neo liberalism and the destruction of collectivism that would have supported you only really stands to harm you (presuming you do not have the ability to swim or you just overestimated your ability in naive aspirationalism...)

It's everyone’s personal choice. It's just that everyone thinks they can swim with the best of them. It's just sad when they find out they can't and they sink and stick their hand out for help. With the way society is going there won’t be collectivity or the state to help.

Essentially if you argue for hardline individualism, anti unionism and collectivism don't put your hand out for collective benefits when you find you cant swim and your aspirations are overestimated. Really your individualty keeps you opressed and sinking rather (There is an asian ecnomy argument here but I think I"ll leave it out)

 

[GTR]

what a great argument - we live in a free world so lets promote removing freedom of opportunity and lets promote increasing class distinction and lets promote inability to gain employment and the perpetuation of lowsocio-economic circumstance.....

You are a class act, LaraB. You should call the Children's Helpline. Tell someone who gives a flying fuck. Its a free call.

Since you are so concerned for those positioned in the lower ranks of the socio-economic heirarchy, maybe you should relocate yourself to Ethiopia and join your black counterparts.

Also, your statement about me promoting "inability to gain employment" is elitist in itself. It seems that you are the one promoting "class distinction. You are basically arguing that without tertiary education, individuals within society are basically hapless and unable to gain employment.

 

[LaraB]

That in itself is a contradiction to your own statements. What makes you think that your methods are necessarily "better"?

These leftist pricks never stop complaining about university administration. They always seem to have criticisms,

Why is it that an honest, hard working individual like me have to pay union fees to cater for those peasants that cannot support themselves? If you can't afford to undertake something, then avoid it. The fact that you advocate the victimisation of other students for the sake of peasants is appalling.

i cannot be bothered arguing with bullshit elitest snobbery like that so i will make it simple

1 - it's not a contradiction as i didn't say 'this is what to do" i proposed possible types of methods to determin the best approach

2 - so called 'leftist pricks' as you call them complain about uni admin because uni admin is shit

3 - people are not to blame for their socio-economic status and all of society will suffer if only the wealthy are tertiary educated thru a lowering in standards in particularly skilled professions like medicine

 

[LaraB]

Since you are so concerned for those positioned in the lower ranks of the socio-economic heirarchy, maybe you should relocate yourself to Ethiopia and join your black counterparts.

Also, your statement about me promoting "inability to gain employment" is elitist in itself. It seems that you are the one promoting "class distinction. You are basically arguing that without tertiary education, individuals within society are basically hapless and unable to gain employment.

yeah me relocating to ethiopia - great mature response and oh so practical *applause*

of course you couldn't have considered that i do actually do and aim to do things to help lower socio economic groups such as working for the legal aid commission and doing pro-bono work but of course, you knew that already

my statement is not elitest - i don't see how my saying that the likelihood of meaningful employment is reduced without tertiary education, which is a proven fact,is elitest. I am saying that all should have opportunities to get this education - how the hell is that elitest? go look up the definition of elitest if you still believe that promoting equality of opportunity is elitest

 

[walrusbear]

I really don't care much about the vsu thing much anymore. The increasing neo liberal bent of the youth of today will ensure that they either sink badly or swim well. If they don't swim I don't think it would be reasonable for the state or any form of collectivism to put out their hand for you.

Unless you are the top of your game and know you will be in the upper cohorts or everything in life then neo liberalism will benefit you. If you are not at the top of your cohort in everything you do increasing neo liberalism and the destruction of collectivism that would have supported you only really stands to harm you (presuming you do not have the ability to swim or you just overestimated you ability in naive aspirationalism...)

It's everyone’s personal choice. It's just that everyone thinks they can swim with the best of them. It's just sad when they find out they can't and they sink and stick their hand out for help. With the way society is going there won’t be collectivity or the state to help.

Essentially if you argue for hardline individualism, anti unionism and collectivism don't put your hand out for collective benefits when you find you cant swim and your aspirations are overestimated. Really your individualty keeps you opressed and sinking rather (There is an asian ecnomy argument here but I think I"ll leave it out)

you've summed up the situation well actually

though i'd rather fight for those who are too stupid to recognise what's at stake, than give up

 

[GTR]

of course you couldn't have considered that i do actually do and aim to do things to help lower socio economic groups such as working for the legal aid commission and doing pro-bono work but of course, you knew that already

You doing pro-bono work and working in legal aid? Give me a fucking break. You haven't even seemed to grasp the concept of capital letters, which also highlights your maturity.

Dream on, LaraB. There are plenty of people waiting for moral high riders like you to assist them in their failed lives.

 

[LaraB]

You doing pro-bono work and working in legal aid? Give me a fucking break. You haven't even seemed to grasp the concept of capital letters, which also highlights your maturity.

Dream on, LaraB. There are plenty of people waiting for moral high riders like you to assist them in their failed lives.

Sorry to ruin your day.. next time i'll go through each and every post that i make, regardless of the informal nature of this forum, and fix up all the capital letters and the like so you can rest easy at night.

Nice to know though that you have developed a new measure of determining maturity! I didn't realise the use of upper or lower case indicated a psychological condition! Why, i don't see why you aren't a revered professional in the field.

I would response to your initial comment however, it does not relate at all to the rest of the paragraph, and as i said before you know absolutely nothing about me so it means nothing. I'm sure the people in legal aid are just crying out for elitests who label them 'peasants' and assert that they are to blame 100% for their situation, like you seem to, to be of help.. how productive that would be..