We have a new pope! (1 Viewer)

[imhere4themusic]

i think there is some truth in what your saying if you dont like it you can get out its your own freedom of choice
but i believe that as the religion has such a large influence upon the world that in some areas it must move and continually change to keep its 1.1 billion followers it has to accept new things all the time as the numbers people practising catholicism are gradually waning

It depends on who you ask.. I just feel they shouldn't change their views just because people want to have sex before marriage and be a female priest. If they want to be a female priest they can be Anglican, after all, Anglicans state that all christian churches are just different denominations and all come out to the same meaning. The reason these other churches were created is because people wanted to practise their love for god in another way to the Catholics. If people want to have sex before marriage they shouldn't be Christian at all, it's against ALL Christian churches beliefs and is a sin to god, therefore if you are christian and you "do it" you go to hell. And if people have partners who are christian but they're not and they want to convince them to have sex, that is the lowest of lows, go find another partner.

There are so many ways to view it. But if people whinge about it wanting to get their way they're gonna get slapped in the face by their mummy soon enough, so why not just go to another religion? People can gradually wane all they want.. The Catholic Church will always be there no matter how many followers they have because in their view it is the only way to enlightenment. In a way, it's totally selfish.. but then again so are the people who are complaining. They are greedy, apparantly they want all the sins, plus all the good stuff..

 

[braindrainedAsh]

I think that Catholicism is open for criticism.... the actions of the catholic church, due to their legions of followers, has ramifications both economically and socially for the rest of the world. Their money and power (even though supporter numbers are growing smaller) mean that they can play a major role in global politics, and hence can impact upon more people than just catholics.

I have nothing against catholics, and nothing against people that have faith. However the church has this unquestionable, self-regulated power, which I don't feel that they use for good in many circumstances. The power of the church (the catholic church in particular) is one of the only remnants of feudal society. They come from times before words like democracy, accountability etc were thrown around, so that is why they need to be closely scrutanized when they weild so much economic and social power.

 

[walrusbear]

Why does everyone have so much trouble coping with the "conservatism" of the church today. Why does everyone want to update the church for the modern context.

Don't you get it. I'm neither for or against but I certainly understand that these people have faith, and this faith that they believe in is over 2000 years old, far older than any of you or your modern morals. Since the beginning of catholicsim these rules that media now calls "conservatism" have been in place. If they break these rules, regardless or not whether you believe in god, these people (in their eyes) are set for hell. Why would they change the rules of a church of salvation in turn for hell just to "keep up with the times"?

The issue should not be about the churches conservatism, their opposition to contraception, abortion etc. People must understand that their views won't change, just like George W. Bush and Iraq. IT iS WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN. Everyone who criticises them for their views is fucked. Everyone has their own point of view on things, and how can you know that you're more informed than the other. If the church ever changes on these issues it will be a sad day for the world;not because I am opposed to these issues, because I'm not. I want female priests, I want abortion rights, I want Homosexuals treated equally; but because a millennia old tradition and belief for many people will succumb to the shallow views of media world-wide. Think about this? Will muslims ever allow their women to walk around without their head-scarves ever? Will John Howard ever give normal Australians a fair go? Wll Bob Dylan live till 503? Are these relevant arguments either? No..

If you don't believe in what the Catholics believe in then do the smarter thing. Instead of bantering about it for the rest of time, be the more mature one. Walk away, accept they won't change and don't believe in it. Go to another faith. You don't have to worry about it at all if you don't believe in it anyway. After all, if you don't believe in it then it surely isn't true right? Who's loss is it anyway? Your's (You're going to hell now)? Their's (for putting their faith in a sham all their lives?)

Either way you both lose out.

that's entirely untrue, there is a large faction of the church with progressive ideas - and the swing to conservatism creates a giant divide.
the church has always been dynamic, not some construct that has remained static for 2000 years.
you seem the conflate faith with dogma too. many catholics believe in a church that can adapt to changing social conditions and fit christian teachings to current ethical problems.
the church does not, and isn't as you describe, a lumbering static and irrelevant vehicle for fundamentalists (not entirely anyway)

 

[imhere4themusic]

that's entirely untrue, there is a large faction of the church with progressive ideas - and the swing to conservatism creates a giant divide.
the church has always been dynamic, not some construct that has remained static for 2000 years.
you seem the conflate faith with dogma too. many catholics believe in a church that can adapt to changing social conditions and fit christian teachings to current ethical problems.
the church does not, and isn't as you describe, a lumbering static and irrelevant vehicle for fundamentalists (not entirely anyway)

You're right of course it's not I was making a generalisation.. Yes many believe they can fit teachings into todays ethical problems, but that's not the issue. The pope should never soften on selibacy, it's been in the bible since the beginning, so has homosexuality. There is a large part of the church with progressive ideas, but should they really be considered part of a church. The swing to conservatism doesn't create a divide in the church but a break away from conservatism or whatever they called it before it was coined "conservatism". Conservatism was once a normal way of living. The church changes. It had changed a lot of things, but I don't think it should change fundamental views and beliefs of it for the benefit of others. I'll say it again, in a way, christianity, all religion, is selfish. I mean, they want to save themselves first, then others. That's not bad but why should the big guys at the top change their opinion for little people who want to whinge when the big guys at the top will go to "hell" if they do.

 

[firehose]

Anyway the teachings that the church has held regarding issues which seem to boil over today such as homosexuality, women priests, etc. have remained the same for two millenia and just because it's suddenly acceptable in this "new world" doesn't mean they have to change their teaching which they have maintained for so long just to go with the flow. This flow changes rapidly, who knows maybe in 50 yrs the whole fad thing over homosexuality will be completely faded out, and 50 yrs is not a long time in the church's history.

Imhereforthemusic is right, if you don't agree with what they teach then look elsewhere. Personally i agree with the Catholic church's stance on homosexuality but don't agree with their celibacy of priests either.

 

[neo o]

Why does everyone have so much trouble coping with the "conservatism" of the church today. Why does everyone want to update the church for the modern context.

Don't you get it. I'm neither for or against but I certainly understand that these people have faith, and this faith that they believe in is over 2000 years old, far older than any of you or your modern morals. Since the beginning of catholicsim these rules that media now calls "conservatism" have been in place. If they break these rules, regardless or not whether you believe in god, these people (in their eyes) are set for hell. Why would they change the rules of a church of salvation in turn for hell just to "keep up with the times"?

The issue should not be about the churches conservatism, their opposition to contraception, abortion etc. People must understand that their views won't change, just like George W. Bush and Iraq. IT iS WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN. Everyone who criticises them for their views is fucked. Everyone has their own point of view on things, and how can you know that you're more informed than the other. If the church ever changes on these issues it will be a sad day for the world;not because I am opposed to these issues, because I'm not. I want female priests, I want abortion rights, I want Homosexuals treated equally; but because a millennia old tradition and belief for many people will succumb to the shallow views of media world-wide. Think about this? Will muslims ever allow their women to walk around without their head-scarves ever? Will John Howard ever give normal Australians a fair go? Wll Bob Dylan live till 503? Are these relevant arguments either? No..

If you don't believe in what the Catholics believe in then do the smarter thing. Instead of bantering about it for the rest of time, be the more mature one. Walk away, accept they won't change and don't believe in it. Go to another faith. You don't have to worry about it at all if you don't believe in it anyway. After all, if you don't believe in it then it surely isn't true right? Who's loss is it anyway? Your's (You're going to hell now)? Their's (for putting their faith in a sham all their lives?)

Either way you both lose out.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to imhere4themusic again.

 

[walrusbear]

You're right of course it's not I was making a generalisation.. Yes many believe they can fit teachings into todays ethical problems, but that's not the issue. The pope should never soften on selibacy, it's been in the bible since the beginning, so has homosexuality. There is a large part of the church with progressive ideas, but should they really be considered part of a church. The swing to conservatism doesn't create a divide in the church but a break away from conservatism or whatever they called it before it was coined "conservatism". Conservatism was once a normal way of living. The church changes. It had changed a lot of things, but I don't think it should change fundamental views and beliefs of it for the benefit of others. I'll say it again, in a way, christianity, all religion, is selfish. I mean, they want to save themselves first, then others. That's not bad but why should the big guys at the top change their opinion for little people who want to whinge when the big guys at the top will go to "hell" if they do.

thing is, the pope should go 'soft' on things like celibacy and homosexuality
a lot of the 'church' teachings you say are essential really aren't
celibacy was instituted during the middle ages when the church was losing land because priests were marrying and having kids that didn't continue into the priesthood
this whole stance homosexuality is contrary to the REAL fundamental beliefs of the church
it's not hating homos that makes the Catholic church the catholic church. you seem to confuse conservative politically driven dogma as the core of the church - when it really isn't
like i said, the catholic church has not always been a core of dumbarse fundamentalists who need to believe awful dogma to have a spiritual life - efforts were made to prevent this with Vatican II. unfortunately, an intelligent approach to spiritual life seems to be dying.
i guess it's the same in most aspects of life in the west though

 

[tomekz]

business interested in the accumulation of wealth and the spreading of the dogma which will cause people to help maintain that wealth.....

When a Person enters the vocation of a priest he takes an oath of Poverty amongst other things..... This Oath does not go away as you progress to Bishop, arch bishop or even Pope. Just Because this Pope is 78 doesnt mean he wont be around for a long time.

BTW most of you People sound like little girls whinging and complaining, You cant just go around changing rules just because a handful of people feel like it. Next thing you know people will want to go changing the Bible cause it doesnt suit them.

 

[Sweets]

I don't get why every1 is so anti-change. The church and all religions for that matter need to not adapt but to be applicable in the world around them. Religion should not be static because life is not static.

I mean it was not so long ago that under the bible slavery was deemed to be acceptable and i'm sure no one here thinks slavery is good.

The catholic church didn't even accept that the world was round till a while ago. And most rational people today accept that the world is indeed round.

Anyway my point is that while it may just be easier to say 'hey the church is conservative that is their faith let it be' if people had simply 'let it be' before then these changes would have never occured.

 

[Rafy]

The church has to adapt to shifting societal mores. If it does not, the church will loose followers. (Which is already happening) It risks falling into irrelevance.

 

[Rafy]

yeah thats true....but so was everybody living in germany at the time. It was compulsary

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Why does everyone have so much trouble coping with the "conservatism" of the church today. Why does everyone want to update the church for the modern context.

Don't you get it. I'm neither for or against but I certainly understand that these people have faith, and this faith that they believe in is over 2000 years old, far older than any of you or your modern morals. Since the beginning of catholicsim these rules that media now calls "conservatism" have been in place. If they break these rules, regardless or not whether you believe in god, these people (in their eyes) are set for hell. Why would they change the rules of a church of salvation in turn for hell just to "keep up with the times"?

Because they might realise that not only science has advanced, but our conception of morality. Slavery was fine not too long ago. We cannot think that a religious institution with an ancient tradition and belief in slavery, that thinks they will go to hell if they do not believe and adhere to it, must be bound to such absurd thinking when the rest of the world has, rightly so, recognised the more accurate moral position on the issue. Thus, by analogy, we can say the same thing about the issues that the conservative side of the church believes in - issues which are perceived as out of touch with what is socially and morally acceptable.

The issue should not be about the churches conservatism, their opposition to contraception, abortion etc. People must understand that their views won't change, just like George W. Bush and Iraq. IT iS WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN. Everyone who criticises them for their views is fucked.

Anyone who cricises their view is fucked? Grow up.

Everyone has their own point of view on things, and how can you know that you're more informed than the other. If the church ever changes on these issues it will be a sad day for the world;not because I am opposed to these issues, because I'm not. I want female priests, I want abortion rights, I want Homosexuals treated equally; but because a millennia old tradition and belief for many people will succumb to the shallow views of media world-wide. Think about this? Will muslims ever allow their women to walk around without their head-scarves ever? Will John Howard ever give normal Australians a fair go? Wll Bob Dylan live till 503? Are these relevant arguments either? No..

If you don't believe in what the Catholics believe in then do the smarter thing. Instead of bantering about it for the rest of time, be the more mature one. Walk away, accept they won't change and don't believe in it. Go to another faith. You don't have to worry about it at all if you don't believe in it anyway. After all, if you don't believe in it then it surely isn't true right? Who's loss is it anyway? Your's (You're going to hell now)? Their's (for putting their faith in a sham all their lives?)

Either way you both lose out.

When their behaviour is effecting people's lives, allowing damaging attitudes to persevere is a very selfish thing to do. We ought to work towards advancing humanity rather than letting certain harmful beliefs continue - just because it doesn't effect you or me.

 

[spell check]

Ratzinger can't see parallels between the Nazi's lies about Jews and genetics, which he apparently criticised, and his own church lying about homosexuals being evil?

 

[spell check]

more like Pope Benedict Arnold

 

[MuffinMan]

lol i saw him on the news lol he looked like happy (in a evil way - probably hoping for a personal gain of some sort)

 

[pete_mate]

changing the bible? rules?

silly catholics dont realise that the bible is open to interpretation, it does not explicitly say that contraception is bad, and definately not to celibacy.

aand the word mary is mentioned about 5 times, peter was mentioned waay more, why dont you go worship him?

if you catholics are beleiving in rules instated by the church in the dark ages, then thats not a 2000 yr old book, thats conservative vomit with no credentials

if you want to beleive in the rules of the church without evidence, then you may aswell join a cult

 

[ohne]

I was expecting Ratzinger to win. Was thinking about placing a bet on this although papal elections have not been tested through betting as of yet.

He seems like a stabiliser to me. I think they elected a 78 year old because they don't want another 26 year rein so soon after John Paul II. He seems perfectly decent to me. The role of the Holy Father is largely a spiritual/moral leader and thus it is perfectly legitimate to condemn abortion, divorce etc.

 

[spell check]

how can the church claim to have any moral or ethical merit at all when it bans women from becoming leaders?

i don't recall God saying men were superior to women

 

[piggystyle]

Well as my yr 11 business studies assessment on the church as a business stated.

The mission statement and vision of the church are outdated.
The church must overcome the resistance to change, especially the inertia of managers and take advantage of changeing markets.
The church must change its marketing strategy to attract new customers. Also the managaers must use their informational roles as spokespeople and their complex problem solving skills to stop the bad publisity and their unethical practises concerning little boys and middle management.

and so on

my teacher liked it, got bad marks tho.... but doesnt really matter in yr 11

 

[ohne]

how can the church claim to have any moral or ethical merit at all when it bans women from becoming leaders?

i don't recall God saying men were superior to women

I think this issue is a little more complex than you suggest. In my opinion women should be allowed to become priests although even if a liberal pope had been elected this would still be along way away.

Leadership does not necessarily equal superiority. John Paul II looked to Mary just as much as he looked to God. The role of mothers is not something that should necessarily be looked down upon.