West Germany v East Germany (1 Viewer)

[loquasagacious]

Twenty years ago today the Berlin Wall fell and in the following year East and West Germany were reunited. It is hard to over state the significance of this event because Germany is an excellent microcosm of capitalism versus communism and we, capitalism, won.

In 1945 the two Germanys were essentially the same in the following years western capitalism was implemented in one and Russian communism in the other. On one side of the wall there was freedom and on the other oppression. West Germany prospered and East Germany languished. So deleterious were the effects of communism that twenty years on it's effects are still being felt.

This would seem to be a pretty clear-cut case for free markets and a free society, but twenty years on we are having the same debate. Socialism/communism appears to be alive and kicking, the GFC has been labelled a crisis of capitalism and certainly judging by the BOS scatterplot there are many people who are at least socialist/socialist-sympathisers.

So lets play the history game: where would you have rather lived? East or West Germany?

 

[David Spade]

Gosh if anyone answers East germany they hate freedom

 

[annabackwards]

I would like to point out, true communism was not what was practised by the USSR and nor did America practise true democracy/capitalism as the put into power oppressive dictators. So i wouldn't say the Berlin Wall separated communism from capitalism.

With that being said, i would have rather lived in West Germany.

 

[David Spade]

China is a great country

 

[loquasagacious]

I would like to point out, true communism was not what was practised by the USSR and nor did America practise true democracy/capitalism as the put into power oppressive dictators. So i wouldn't say the Berlin Wall separated communism from capitalism.

With that being said, i would have rather lived in West Germany.

I hope you enjoy being able to romanticise communism while enjoying the highest standard of living ever enjoyed by anyone, anywhere - courtesy of the free market/free society.

Also I note that in 1949 free elections were held in West Germany while the same year in East Germany a socialist dictatorship was enshrined.

 

[annabackwards]

I hope you enjoy being able to romanticise communism while enjoying the highest standard of living ever enjoyed by anyone, anywhere - courtesy of the free market/free society.

Also I note that in 1949 free elections were held in West Germany while the same year in East Germany a socialist dictatorship was enshrined.

LOL, i like the ideals of communism but i'm pragmatic to realise such ideals cannot possibly be put into practise. As when they applied they are horirbly deformed into a form of dictatorship hiding behind the notion of "sharing" XD

 

[Iron]

Whatever. Both you and Stalin insist that the person is nothng more than a "cog" - whether that be in the wheel of state or the market. This indifference to life is the real root of all major state implosions and it is an attitude that you seem well acquainted with lockardski

 

[loquasagacious]

Whatever. Both you and Stalin insist that the person is nothng more than a "cog" - whether that be in the wheel of state or the market. This indifference to life is the real root of all major state implosions and it is an attitude that you seem well acquainted with lockardski

On the contrary comrade I am fiercly committed to life and the individual. I support the market because I strongly believe (and the evidence supports me) that the market is better for individuals, far from being cogs in a machine (as they are under communism), they are actors in the system with the ability to effect changes to their lives.

For me freedom is all about the people.

 

[Silver Persian]

I doubt many BoSers are going to support Soviet style communist regimes.

Your real enemies are the social democratic Scandinavian nations!

 

[Silver Persian]

I think this topic was probably motivated by this article in the SMH, suggesting a global decline in support for free market capitalism, and a growing belief in regluation.

Berlin Wall and capitalism

 

[loquasagacious]

I think this topic was probably motivated by this article in the SMH, suggesting a global decline in support for free market capitalism, and a growing belief in regluation.

Berlin Wall and capitalism

Good article but I hadn't read it. Motivated by the date, govt responses to the GFC and the ABC doco 'Lost Worlds of Communism'.

 

[David Spade]

& the niggers

 

[Riet]

If anyone answers East they are a moron even if they hate freedom.

 

[Cookie182]

East.

There is something psychologically stimulating about surviving oppression.

If you make it out, you can write a good book.

Kinda like a Hero's Journey.

 

[Iron]

On the contrary comrade I am fiercly committed to life and the individual. I support the market because I strongly believe (and the evidence supports me) that the market is better for individuals, far from being cogs in a machine (as they are under communism), they are actors in the system with the ability to effect changes to their lives.

For me freedom is all about the people.

No, ill tell you what you think.

For you freedom is all about unlimited licence for man the individual to do anything, but youre openly hostile to mankind - its dignity, value and even existence. This is evidenced by your hostility towards familial and broader community obligations and your insistence that a man is only as valuable as his wage x working life expectancy

'Actors in the system' strikes me as a nice 21st century Ruddism because you still place the system's value above that of mankind's. Like our Dear Leader, I suspect that you have the face of a compassionate champion of humanity, but the heart and soul of a brutal tyrannt

 

[Riet]

well the jew was the inventor of socialism and communism. So I wouldnt be surprised to see the jews on this forum vote east.

that doesnt even make sense since the majority of the pro-israel people are also pro-western civilisation and freedom.

 

[strasiotto]

Personally, I would prefer NOT to live in Germany at all. I mean, its Germany- gross.

I don't really believe in pure communism (and especially not warped russian communism), I mean it seems like a nice idea, but I really don't think it'll ever work.

So, I'm going west side.

 

[David Spade]

germany is easily one fo the best countries in the world???

 

[loquasagacious]

No, ill tell you what you think.

For you freedom is all about unlimited licence for man the individual to do anything, but youre openly hostile to mankind - its dignity, value and even existence. This is evidenced by your hostility towards familial and broader community obligations and your insistence that a man is only as valuable as his wage x working life expectancy

'Actors in the system' strikes me as a nice 21st century Ruddism because you still place the system's value above that of mankind's. Like our Dear Leader, I suspect that you have the face of a compassionate champion of humanity, but the heart and soul of a brutal tyrannt

I think you mistake me. Perhaps even seek to paint me as the 'other'.

Mankind is collective humanity and indeed is much greater than the sum of it's parts because individuals exercise comparitively low power at an all of mankind level but as a whole mankind can reshape itself and it's environment.

I believe in the dignity and value of each individual person - it is this belief which propels me to support the freedom of individuals. I think that individuals do have obligations to their families, communities and broader society - however I think that these are naturally occuring, evolving and enforcing obligations which emphatically should not be codified and enforced by a state.

I find the NPV of an individual to be the best assessment of the value of human life because it is the only quantifiable assessment we have. It is undeniably crude and undervalues charity work and the unemployed however it directly reflects the price at which people willingly exchange their own lives.

The system is mankind. The system is actors. Mankind is individuals. My choice of phrasing was driven by the difference between immobile cogs trapped in a machine and actors free to do as they want.

I usually think it is the reverse where I can come across a heartless champion of the markets when I am at heart a deeply compassionate champion of humanity. Of our respective concepts I know which I would rather be.

I assure you that I am quite genuine in my compassion. I feel that each and every example of human misery and suffering is a tragedy in and of itself. In my opinion the best way that we can address these problems is with free markets and free societies. Capitalism is the greatest wealth generating mechanism we have and in recent years has improved standards of living and lifted literally hundreds of millions of people out of abject poverty.

I believe first and foremost in the value and dignity of human existence and it is on that basis that I support free markets and free societies.

 

[Riet]

Germany is the largest exporter in the world in terms of value (yes, more than china) as well as being fucking cool. It is an awesome country.
Edit: Their economy accounts for ~20% of the european union.