What are your rights? (2 Viewers)

[Silver Persian]

human rights are a human construct,
So trying to objectify them is a pretty pointless endeavor....

It is undoubtedly true that the notion of a "right" is a human construct. However, this says nothing about whether the notion of rights should or should not exist, and in what form.

I suspect the topic should be titled, "What should your rights be?"



I feel like I've said exactly the same thing in three different topics now

 

[scaredytiger]

rights are a reaction to an increasingly secular society, which calls for a set of entitlements with a basis deriving from humanity, not religious doctrine.

 

[HumanDichotomy]

It is undoubtedly true that the notion of a "right" is a human construct. However, this says nothing about whether the notion of rights should or should not exist, and in what form.

I agree 100%. Simply because something is a 'human construct' does not render it invalid.

 

[Iron]

Society has been secular since the state replaced the church during the enlightenment by the way.

It seems to me that in the present phase of European history the essential issue is no longer between Catholicism, on one side, and Protestantism, on the other, but between Christianity and Chaos. It is much the same situation as existed in the early Middle Ages. In the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries conflicting social and political forces rendered irreconcilable the division between two great groups of Christian thought. In the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries the choice before any educated European was between Christianity, in whatever form it was presented to him in the circumstances of his upbringing, and, on the other side, a polite and highly attractive scepticism. So great, indeed, was the inherited subconscious power of Christianity that it was nearly two centuries before the real nature of this loss of faith become apparent.

Today we can see it on all sides as the active negation of all that western culture has stood for. Civilization – and by this I do not mean talking cinemas and tinned food, nor even surgery and hygienic houses, but the whole moral and artistic organisation of Europe – has not in itself the power of survival. It came into being through Christianity, and without it has no significance or power to command allegiance. The loss of faith in Christianity and the consequential lack of confidence in moral and social standards have become embodied in the ideal of a materialistic, mechanized state, already existent in Russia and rapidly spreading south and west. It is no longer possible, as it was in the time of Gibbon, to accept the benefits of civilization and at the same time deny the supernatural basis upon which it rests. As the issues become clearer, the polite sceptic and with him that purely fictitious figure, the happy hedonist, will disappear.

That is the first discovery, that Christianity is essential to civilization and that it is in greater need of combative strength than it has been for centuries. The second discovery is that Chrisitanity exists in its most complete and vital form in the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[pman]

I have the right not be brainwashed by the australian education system!

 

[spyro14]

I have the right not be brainwashed by the australian education system!

Ultimately I would like to have the right not be be given a number in which everyone will judge me for the rest of my life. HMMMMM you arn't any good at decontructing shitty boring novels and evaluating something or other about whatever AOS the Board of Studies randomly choose so therefore you are incapable of becoming a Physiotherapist or a Dentist.

 

[pman]

Ultimately I would like to have the right not be be given a number in which everyone will judge me for the rest of my life. HMMMMM you arn't any good at decontructing shitty boring novels and evaluating something or other about whatever AOS the Board of Studies randomly choose so therefore you are incapable of becoming a Physiotherapist or a Dentist.

so we have the right to be mathematicians even if we aren't good at english?

 

[murphyad]

Ultimately I would like to have the right not be be given a number in which everyone will judge me for the rest of my life.

An overexaggeration.

HMMMMM you arn't any good at decontructing shitty boring novels and evaluating something or other about whatever AOS the Board of Studies randomly choose so therefore you are incapable of becoming a Physiotherapist or a Dentist.

This is a narrow-minded approach to education more than it is indicative of any flaw in the system.

 

[HumanDichotomy]

Any of this 'rights' stuff sounding horribly familiar, murphyad?

 

[spyro14]

An overexaggeration.


This is a narrow-minded approach to education more than it is indicative of any flaw in the system.

You can't tell me how I should feel towards it in anyway which would make me care, I accept the system for I can not think of a better one, doesn't stop me from hating it.

It's narrow minded to think the system doesn't have flaws, as I previously said I accept it anyway despite it being a crude filtering system straining out people who have diverse talents so they can become whatever they want when those who have a specific strength are heavily penalised and sometimes are unable to pursue it.

 

[pman]

i have the right to remain silent, what i lack is the capacity to use it (gotta love shrek)

 

[murphyad]

You can't tell me how I should feel towards it in anyway which would make me care, I accept the system for I can not think of a better one, doesn't stop me from hating it.

You're quite right, and I didn't. I said that perhaps you overestimate it's importance in the long term, and also suggested what I saw as the likely cause for your current attitude. No dictation involved.

It's narrow minded to think the system doesn't have flaws, as I previously said I accept it anyway despite it being a crude filtering system straining out people who have diverse talents so they can become whatever they want when those who have a specific strength are heavily penalised and sometimes are unable to pursue it.

Of course it isn't perfect, but one could apply your current philosophy to any level of education. From primary -> secondary -> tertiary, education in this country is a continuous process of specialisation. But diverse talent is important to ensure a more developed intellect. If I wanted to become an international lawyer, I could bitch and moan about how an LLB is not specific enough for this aspiration in the same way that you hate the secondary schooling system. However, its important to recognise that skills must be slowly honed to a point and not rushed.

By the way, talent in school = 90% attitude, 10% ability.

 

[spyro14]

You're quite right, and I didn't. I said that perhaps you overestimate it's importance in the long term, and also suggested what I saw as the likely cause for your current attitude. No dictation involved.



Of course it isn't perfect, but one could apply your current philosophy to any level of education. From primary -> secondary -> tertiary, education in this country is a continuous process of specialisation. But diverse talent is important to ensure a more developed intellect. If I wanted to become an international lawyer, I could bitch and moan about how an LLB is not specific enough for this aspiration in the same way that you hate the secondary schooling system. However, its important to recognise that skills must be slowly honed to a point and not rushed.

By the way, talent in school = 90% attitude, 10% ability.

I like that response a lot more than the others I have to admit but, I do "recognised that skills must be slowly honed to a point and not rushed" but that doesn't mean that the system doesn't let down some legitimately hardworking individuals who are forced to do a compulsory english course and fail it that's about themes and analysis more than basic writting skills which are in most careers more important.

My first point about wanting the right not to be judged so heavily on school performance was actually more idealistic for me, personal rather than anything else. I understand how the education system serves an important purpose and that there isn't much that can be done about it since it's the best system we have. Nevertheless I hate it and I probably will continue to hate it from the rest of my life unless of course I forget about it and get on with my life.

 

[murphyad]

I like that response a lot more than the others I have to admit but, I do "recognised that skills must be slowly honed to a point and not rushed" but that doesn't mean that the system doesn't let down some legitimately hardworking individuals who are forced to do a compulsory english course and fail it that's about themes and analysis more than basic writting skills which are in most careers more important.

Well it would seem that we can move towards reconciliation on this one. I understand what you mean about the 'legitimately hard-working individuals' and I see it at school every exam. However, the 'themes and analysis' that you speak of can be construed more generally as the development of critical thinking; I have certainly noticed this myself as I have gone from failing english essays in my prelims to high band-A's and my mind has become sharper for it. While themes and analysis themselves may not be so important (they're not really to me), broader intellectual skills that I have derived from these subjects certainly are.

Wow, how I have deviated from the topic of this thread. Perhaps I had betterl leave it at that.

 

[Ubik]

Ultimately I would like to have the right not be be given a number in which everyone will judge me for the rest of my life.

You do have the right to opt out of the HSC though. No individual is under force to complete the HSC and receive this number.

It's not true 'everyone' will judge you on this number for the rest of your life. Outside of a university application it has no relevance.

There are also many alternative pathways to university, the situation really couldn't be more fair.

There is an argument for allowing greater choice and freedom for parents with regards to home schooling, alternative education, but I think mandatory educational standards are a necessary evil in providing some protection for children from abuse and neglect.

 

[Ubik]

HSC english being mandatory is indefensible.

It only exists because delicate sensibilities get rosy feelings from the state imposing a limited classical education, and trying to enforce and foster a certain kind of outmoded traditional culture.

The imposition of the mandatory critical study and deconstruction of texts at HSC level upon all students in no way offers benefits or fosters talents that no other subject can.

It's a pointless exercise maintained purely due to an emotional appeal to tradition.

Of course it also helps mathematically standardize the ranking of students, but there must be a better way.

 

[murphyad]

HSC english being mandatory is indefensible.

It only exists because delicate sensibilities get rosy feelings from the state imposing a limited classical education, and trying to enforce and foster a certain kind of outmoded traditional culture.....

It's a pointless exercise maintained purely due to an emotional appeal to tradition.

On what basis do you suppose this?

Your final point is the most valid: since HSC scaling is determined by considering the overall competency of each courses candidacy in relation to the entire HSC candidacy, one subject must be compulsory in order for the overall competency of the candidacy to be determined.

So what other subject would be as appropriate for this as english?

 

[Ubik]

Ranking could be determined in another fashion. I'm certain an algorithm could be created.

Just because the current method of scaling requires a constant subject, doesn't mean there aren't other ways.

You could compare how the population of individuals compare in a particular subject, with how that population compares in their other subjects, in order to determine the relative ranking and weighting that should be given to different subjects. The whole body of subjects determines their relative weighting.
e.g. As a population, general maths students will perform more poorly in all their subjects, than the population of mathematics students.

It's more complicated sure, worth the effort for individual choice

On what basis do you suppose this?

Things HSC english teaches that are essential for all individuals in tertiary education.... that no other subject teaches to some degree...

 

[spyro14]

So what other subject would be as appropriate for this as english?

Not a different subject, just an entirely different syllabus that focuses on writting skills and structure as opposed to its current text based self which I think should be an additional unit of english that isn't compulsary.